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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sierra is not going to go into the premium bullet market.They already have the largest market share of the type of bullets they sell and the competition bullets they sell far out sell the closest competitor.
I always hear about one time long ago and far away where a Sierra bullet did not live up to expectations. A statistic of one or two for that person.I would imagine that one could take any bullet on the market and come up with the same scenario.
Interesting article I read lately.The guy who killed 2000 elphants with a 7 x 57 killed over half of them with a FMJ military bullet, aveage 1.5 bullet per kill.They noted that it was his marksmanship and not his choice of bullet. That would still hold true today
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,144 Likes: 11 |
+1 to saddlesore's post.
Those who understand cup-and-core bullets will always gets what they want out of Sierras. Others will demand something that works to some other ideal than killing the animal.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,650 Likes: 5 |
Agreed. Even if it had a more generously tapered thickness jacket (easy to make even if they insist on using lead inside) and would help alot of folks and they would be better suited for a wider range of FPS which would work even better for the close and longer shots (within responsible reasoning).
I'm running the 215 SGK at about 2700 fps through my 338-06. I emailed them to find out how stout I could expect this bullet to be and was told by Rich Machholz that the jacket is the same as the one they use on their 250 gr GK, but shortened. Should be plenty stout or about anything up to elk or moose, but alas, I'll be using mine on whitetails this fall. Maybe mulies next fall... Every tool has its purpose, and if you use it in the way it was designed you should reasonably expect the results you seek. 2700 fps for a cup'n'core is well within the design specifications. As someone else said, I'm sure you could start threads just like this on Speers, Hornadys, and Noslers.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I've used the 250 grain .338 BT a bit, a couple moose ,one at 480 long paces ( a moose is a very big target one shot put him down where he stood busted both shoulders) ;), 3 or 4 caribou, and a couple black bear. It never let me down not sure why I switched to NP's, but then they've never let me down either. --- Mel
The only thing I'm an expert at is my own opinion, and I have plenty of those!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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I've used the 250 grain .338 BT a bit, a couple moose ,one at 480 long paces ( a moose is a very big target one shot put him down where he stood busted both shoulders) ;), 3 or 4 caribou, and a couple black bear. It never let me down not sure why I switched to NP's, but then they've never let me down either. --- Mel You missed, huh? I've seen you insist on shooting big hairy stuff BEHIND the freaking shoulders!  art shaking head and laughing
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I swear at 'em..
A Hunting pard swears by them...30-06 165GK
Ingwe They are my start bullet generally, until I can get time to sit down to work my TSX into the formula. I used to think of them as an ok bullet mostly and a bit frangible if anything. I loaded for my buddy for a number of years, 165 in 06, then he shot a buck where the bullet NEVER expanded at all, through both lungs and they killed that buck 3 weeks later with a neck shot.... that original shot hit a rib going in and out.... we moved him to TSX right away. I didn't have time to mess with a lot of load work last fall and shot 160s in my 7x300.... talk about wild performance. Couple of head shots did fine, then we had a couple that penciled through....the final straw was that about a 50 pound hog stopped the complete bullet lengthwise at a bit over 250 yards.... to much uncertainty about what it will do IMHO. But then thats typical of Cup and Core.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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+1 to saddlesore's post.
Those who understand cup-and-core bullets will always gets what they want out of Sierras. Others will demand something that works to some other ideal than killing the animal. So how do we explain the 165 in 06 in and out through a rib each time, around 120ish yards, never opening up, and never killing the deer through both lungs? The SAME way we explain the Barnes bullets here and there supposedly(I've never seen it) not opening. I was sitting and thinking after I replied a minute or so earlier, when still doing taxidermy I saw a lot of bullets and without a doubt the game king was the one most likely to have seperated from the jacket. Of course we do note that every deer brought to me was already dead. I think you both nailed it on location of shot and the one I mention was pure fluke. Run it at suggested speeds and distances and all will generally be well. But that limits uses and such and thats enough of a reason for me to at a minimum to think bonded as a minimum.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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GameKings aren't my first choice by any means. (I don't even like them over Hornadys in my hunting rifles as simple accuracy goes overall.) I haven't hed any complaints with them however on several moose I've killed with them. In fact, a 250 .338 was one among the few (three) instant tip-overs I've had when killing moose. And none of them was a CNS shot. (I've also driven that same bullet through the meaty shoulder area of a longer distance moose.)
But I suspect Sierra won't worry about how good or bad their bullets compare to others as long as people keep shooting 50 of theirs for every 5 of the bonded, mono, or other premium construction bullets that get shot. It's a simple fact, if everyone made only Partitions (or TSXs), not everyone would stay in business. I'm sure Sierra adequately maintains their market share doing what they do.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Gamekings work if you don't push them too fast..I have had pretty good luck with them in the 250 gr. 338 and the 300 gr. 375 over the years..
All that said, these days I see no reason not to use one of the excellent bonded core bullets, they never fail. To do otherwise seems foolish to me?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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JB recently wrote an article about the virtues of 2,700 fps. I think he wrote it specifically for the Sierra bullets. Long ago, I developed the theory that the GK worked just fine if their sectional density was held to a minimum of .240 or so with muzzle velocities of 2,600 to maybe a bit over 2,800 fps. I have used the GK in that window with the .308, 30-06, .270, and 6.5x55. In those instances, they work fine. Go less than that in SD, and in my experience they have a nasty tendency to come apart. FWIW, I have found the HPBT to be quite a bit tougher than the soft nose counterpart. I like the 160 HPBT in my 7mm Remington Mag.
Steve
Theodore Roosevelt: "Do what you can where you are with what you have"
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Atkinson.Many times on this forum you have stated that you shoot what you want and others can do as they want,and yet you end up saying to shoot anything other than one of the premiums is foolish. To me that insinuates that all of us that shoot these bullets are fools. Pretty harsh words which I take a little, bit of an offense.I guarantee, there have been a heck of a lot more animals killed with these std bullets by many hunters than just the few thousand you have killed. Example.In Pa, for many years thousands of whitetail deer a year were killed, and as I remember about the same number were killed in Wisconsin or Minnisota.The majority for many years were kiled with a 30-30 using Cor Loks,or Win PP or maybe silver tips.
You are the one who continuously professes that all elk shot in your area are usually shot at the south end of a north bound elk. So I can see why you have to use these bullets, but there are many of us who don't necessarily have to do that. If it were me,I'd figure out how come that is and correct the problem. Maybe we are just stupid or fools,or just maybe,we have learned a thing or two along the way.
I chose to use a bullet that will do the job, and save a little money doing it. As I have posted many times here, using a $1 bullet where a 25 cent bullet will do is like paying a $100 lady of the evening for a $5 oral sex job. You feel the same when it is all over and done with, but you just wasted $95. Those $95 dollars come hard for me. It will buy me the diesel to get to and from my hunting area, and I can still buy $22 worth of bullets with what is left.
I have a 3/4 T diesel pick up that is required to pull my stock trailer, but I don't use it every day running around. I use the little Toyota Tacoma.Sorta of the same thing. The big truck will do the job, but it sure is wasting money using it.
Just my take on it.
Last edited by saddlesore; 10/24/09.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Atkinson.Many times on this forum you have stated that you shoot what you want and others can do as they want,and yet you end up saying to shoot anything other than one of the premiums is foolish. To me that insinuates that all of us that shoot these bullets are fools. Pretty harsh words which I take a little, bit of an offense.I guarantee, there have been a heck of a lot more animals killed with these std bullets by many hunters than just the few thousand you have killed. Example.In Pa, for many years thousands of whitetail deer a year were killed, and as I remember about the same number were killed in Wisconsin or Minnisota.The majority for many years were kiled with a 30-30 using Cor Loks,or Win PP or maybe silver tips.
You are the one who continuously professes that all elk shot in your area are usually shot at the south end of a north bound elk. So I can see why you have to use these bullets, but there are many of us who don't necessarily have to do that. If it were me,I'd figure out how come that is and correct the problem. Maybe we are just stupid or fools,or just maybe,we have learned a thing or two along the way.
I chose to use a bullet that will do the job, and save a little money doing it. As I have posted many times here, using a $1 bullet where a 25 cent bullet will do is like paying a $100 lady of the evening for a $5 oral sex job. You feel the same when it is all over and done with, but you just wasted $95. Those $95 dollars come hard for me. It will buy me the diesel to get to and from my hunting area, and I can still buy $22 worth of bullets with what is left.
I have a 3/4 T diesel pick up that is required to pull my stock trailer, but I don't use it every day running around. I use the little Toyota Tacoma.Sorta of the same thing. The big truck will do the job, but it sure is wasting money using it.
Just my take on it.
And I don't buy Ray's silly nonsense that a bullet should make two holes in an animal so it leaves a blood trail so it can be tracked. WTF is up with that? Perhaps he has become too dependent on all those african trackers that accompanied him on his past african safaris! Lols! MtnHtr
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I'm a pretty big fan of GK's, especially the HPBT version.
I say load them up in whatever you want, shoot the deer right, and fill out your tag.I've yet to have one let me down. I've been shooting the Sierra #2140, 165gr HPBT GK in my .30-06 since the early 80's. Took a lot of deer out in Montana with that combination. Never a problem and all one shot kills. Great product and affordable.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,650 Likes: 5 |
I'm a pretty big fan of GK's, especially the HPBT version.
I say load them up in whatever you want, shoot the deer right, and fill out your tag.I've yet to have one let me down. I've been shooting the Sierra #2140, 165gr HPBT GK in my .30-06 since the early 80's. Took a lot of deer out in Montana with that combination. Never a problem and all one shot kills. Great product and affordable. Looking at the Midway site, the 7mm/160 gr HPGK gets 5 stars from all 5 who give feedback, one of them a 7 STW shooter: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=774260The other is the 30 cal/165 gr HPGK, and 25 of 29 reviews give 5 stars. Of the 4 that don't, 2 were clearly pushed by magnums. 3 of them complain of massive upset, and the other of a pencil hole: https://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=326863I've been told by people I trust (some with experience) that this would be a great elk bullet. Even so, taking these to deer camp for whitetails is one thing. If I were heading out West for elk I'd try out the NAB or NPT, as these leave no doubt as to performance. In spite of the nature of many of these stories making it sound as though they are bad cartridge/bullet combinations it is enough to place doubt in my mind.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I'm a pretty big fan of GK's, especially the HPBT version.
I say load them up in whatever you want, shoot the deer right, and fill out your tag.I've yet to have one let me down. I've been shooting the Sierra #2140, 165gr HPBT GK in my .30-06 since the early 80's. Took a lot of deer out in Montana with that combination. Never a problem and all one shot kills. Great product and affordable. Looking at the Midway site, the 7mm/160 gr HPGK gets 5 stars from all 5 who give feedback, one of them a 7 STW shooter: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=774260The other is the 30 cal/165 gr HPGK, and 25 of 29 reviews give 5 stars. Of the 4 that don't, 2 were clearly pushed by magnums. 3 of them complain of massive upset, and the other of a pencil hole: https://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=326863I've been told by people I trust (some with experience) that this would be a great elk bullet. Even so, taking these to deer camp for whitetails is one thing. If I were heading out West for elk I'd try out the NAB or NPT, as these leave no doubt as to performance. In spite of the nature of many of these stories making it sound as though they are bad cartridge/bullet combinations it is enough to place doubt in my mind. the reason it will work on Elk is that the copper jacket is considerably thicker than their non-hollow point bullets. I would try it without hesitation. Put the shot where it is supposed to be and it will perform. Personally, I like this bullet for non-magnum cartridges.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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+1 to saddlesore's post.
Those who understand cup-and-core bullets will always gets what they want out of Sierras. Others will demand something that works to some other ideal than killing the animal. So how do we explain the 165 in 06 in and out through a rib each time, around 120ish yards, never opening up, and never killing the deer through both lungs? The SAME way we explain the Barnes bullets here and there supposedly(I've never seen it) not opening. I was sitting and thinking after I replied a minute or so earlier, when still doing taxidermy I saw a lot of bullets and without a doubt the game king was the one most likely to have seperated from the jacket. Of course we do note that every deer brought to me was already dead. I think you both nailed it on location of shot and the one I mention was pure fluke. Run it at suggested speeds and distances and all will generally be well. But that limits uses and such and thats enough of a reason for me to at a minimum to think bonded as a minimum. I agree with Jeff. No doubt when you knowingly use a bullet outsie of it's performance envelope you can't complain when it doesn't work well. However, when a 180 grain GK launched at 2900 fps and impacts at 50-60 yds pencils through the ribs of a deer one day, but the next day it won't go lengthwise, it makes you ask just what is the perfomance envelope of that bullet? BTW, both small deer required a tracking job. When a 165 GK impacts at 2400 fps and still comes apart, then how slow does it need to go to penetrate? While a Gameking is very accurate, I'll gladly trade a 1/2 moa of accuracy for a much wider performance envelope. Take a Barnes TSX for example. A 168 TSX, launched at 2850 - 2900 fps, is able to go corner to corner (though the paunch) on a hog at 200 yds, AND open up enough to dump small and medium sized blacktail deer at 80-100 yds on the spot. With so many bullets out there that will do that, why even fuss with a GK? If you hunt in a place where you have enough time for deer sized critters to turn broadside and stand still, then the bullet you use isn't that big of a deal--just take your time and shoot them in the head or behind the shoulder. However, if the animals you're hunting are like these blacktails I'm hunting here in Oregon--where very common scenario is a quick moving deer, 40-100 yds away in semi open to thick timber, then you bullet needs to be able to go corner to corner AND expand. That requirement disqualifies Sierra Gamekings. BTW, I am not anti-Sierra. When I shot competition I used Matchkings, and if I ever shoot competition again I'll use Matchkings.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,086 |
Blaine, I have heard that story before. I grew up hunting thick stands of laurel in PA and about as thick as anything one can imagine.The bullet of choice was 170 gr fl pt out of a 30-30. Shooting was fast as you say, but no one ever thought they had to drill a deer from end to end. For 40 yrs my father used a 38-40.That is a handgun cartrige going about 800fps. A heck of alot of deer fell to that old gun.
After I moved to NM ,we hunted thick oak brush. Again about as thick as the laurel,many times only crawling though it on hands and knees.Then I used the old Norma BT, 130 gr bullets out of a.308. (not produced anymore),then switched to Game Kings. Again,no one I hunted with nor myself ever thought you had to drill one end to end and we sure killed a lot of deer.With those experinces,I have to call BS on the need premium bullets in close cover. Myself I would opt for a heavy bullet out of a 44 mag, 444 .375 or some thing like that
I have never heard of a GK penciling through anything , particularly at 2900 fps,but I have heard a lot about Barnes bullets doing that and even partitions, but I suppose it could happen.
As I posted before I'd bet you can take any bullet one choses and find some story that it did not perform as expected.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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There is definitely a division here which is to be expected. However I'm with the Major on end to end (or through and through). The views and experiences of others as well on this matter makes one think of "why take a chance". Sort of like taking a rifle in a questionable chambered in the woods to do your bidding. It's not a perfect world and some of us choose to take some of those risks out of the factor and go with insurance (or what we believe is).
The MKs for comp is hard to beat.
It is what it is no matter how much icing or whipped cream is on it.
Last edited by SUPERDIESEL1; 10/25/09.
Some go through life wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem. Ronald Regan
My Longest shot is my shortest stalk. USMC 83-87
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have never heard of a GK penciling through anything , particularly at 2900 fps,but I have heard a lot about Barnes bullets doing that and even partitions, but I suppose it could happen. Had it happen to me with a 180 grain .308 GameKing. Took a shot to finish off a hunting partner's crippled doe, broken front leg, at 425 yards as best I could pace it off under the conditions. Between the ribs in, through both lungs, and between the ribs out. Of course it ran so a farmhouse was directly behind it from where I stood. Died in the trees behind the farmhouse about a quarter mile away. But then I've seen the same thing happen with a .243 at less than 100 yards. (Uncle Jack just about threw the new rifle he was bragging up into a ditch.  ) Not surprising as lungs are mostly just more air. Weird things do happen from time to time if you hunt long enough though I seem to get more than my share.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489 |
Blaine, I have heard that story before. I grew up hunting thick stands of laurel in PA and about as thick as anything one can imagine.The bullet of choice was 170 gr fl pt out of a 30-30. Shooting was fast as you say, but no one ever thought they had to drill a deer from end to end. For 40 yrs my father used a 38-40.That is a handgun cartrige going about 800fps. A heck of alot of deer fell to that old gun.
After I moved to NM ,we hunted thick oak brush. Again about as thick as the laurel,many times only crawling though it on hands and knees.Then I used the old Norma BT, 130 gr bullets out of a.308. (not produced anymore),then switched to Game Kings. Again,no one I hunted with nor myself ever thought you had to drill one end to end and we sure killed a lot of deer.With those experinces,I have to call BS on the need premium bullets in close cover. Myself I would opt for a heavy bullet out of a 44 mag, 444 .375 or some thing like that
I have never heard of a GK penciling through anything , particularly at 2900 fps,but I have heard a lot about Barnes bullets doing that and even partitions, but I suppose it could happen.
As I posted before I'd bet you can take any bullet one choses and find some story that it did not perform as expected. Saddlesore, I won't argue the theory of saving money, and I do it both ways... First if you haven't heard of a GK penciling through read my earlier post.. I don't recall that MV but a 165 in an 06 isn't slow. Here is my theory, I think I get the best of both worlds here. I shoot cheap flat based bullets bought in bulk for the majority of my practice. Have done the same when in competition. I use the best I can for real competition and hunting. That being said I shoot something if I feel the urge to just shoot my deer rifle which is rare, and to verify sight settings I shoot the real thing, that takes at most a couple of shots a year, and then one bullet for each tag I have if I'm lucky.. at most I"m spending maybe 5 bucks more than you are a year, maybe.... Just another way of looking at it. Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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