|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do great also.Could be made heavier and different points. Flat point shown would do great damage to game. On the net- ammunitiontogo.com This one is about 500 gr. Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W, shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 406
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 406 |
BOTH...the slug and the 499 HE are TOTALLY AWESOME.
The plastic driving band and base solves a multitude of problems and opens up a whole host of new ways to make bullets out of non-lead metals...definitely worth watching....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,903
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,903 |
Read almost all of the post and I'm quite impressed with the project. Has anyone approached you about a possible commercial application of this project? Either with the guns or ammo you are developing. With all the areas that are shotgun only it would be nice to have a reload-able 12 ga. 3-3 1/2 inch brass casing platform. Especially with the higher grade/thicker walled brass you use. Not sure I would be into the huge stuff that you have made but something around the standard size or up to even a 4 inch hull would be cool. Military could use it to stop a large truck or fire HE rounds though.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75", 3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our long case with BMG primer. Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi. I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus. Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi. Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500. 420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps. And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder for plastic and brass loads.
We are being copied and heavy barreled NEFs, deepen chambers, and get 3.5" brass now from RMC. Also harrier loads as I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel. But that is great- nice, as it seems we're being copied!!!ED
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own. Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe and they are working to get distributors/stores here. Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only. It is called the US-S slug, and their site is europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds. I had helped him test another slug a while back. He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887 smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at 1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing. Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled. My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle. These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to ask their dealers to work to import these for them to have what seems a good slug to reload...
On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long 10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was kind enough to send me a few of each weight to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right. They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in 3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both. With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle, a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle, and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle, 1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug gun with slugs like these, and others like the Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the Brenekke KOs.In the picture the left two cases are 3.5" Fiocchi with the Fiocchi magnum primers. I compared that primer to the REM 209 primer and it has about the same strength.Next two are FED 3.5". then 2 12GA FH 3.85" cases, then 3.5" RMC brass, then 3" RMC brass, the 2 WIN 3.5", then 2 REM 3.5".ED
Last edited by hubel458; 10/24/09.
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The 700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together. Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000 in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with for smoothbores. Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype, third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some, as it is much easier way. First in picture is 16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long, 3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including two Savage 210s in the lineup...SO I'm selling the first 12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action. Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel. Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad. It is chambered for the original 3.85" long 12GA FH case. 750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and 30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage. He is now in the recoil club. Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones. Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5" plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through 3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic base and it went through straight without tumbling. This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF. Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
4bore work. Working on design of firing pin, and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting real small parts without CNC for bushed firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes time. We will have swaged lead slugs in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done, a hundred of them at least. Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a cartridge collector and gun nut friend.
Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with heat gun from plastic cases,
He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of time not having to make rim pieces.
We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I use on to it in place of the original cushion seal. I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on. The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504" diameter, and works ok. New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases, and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first. Only slight case dimension change is the base .012" smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles, falling blocks.etc. And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH, the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics and info soon. Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it. In fact the trough is big enough and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case. I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my 700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5" wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block. The sides are .187" thick next to breach block. This compares to about .165" say for a Browning B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with 12ga size rim if some work was done on the top of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of 1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good strength. Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of the falling block with a 600NE in the feed trough. Work great chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for 20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also. Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Another way that I put a 12ga rim on bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass 12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil. BPI and others sell them for less than a buck each. Being so short they aren't in the 12ga FH category of generating power. But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck base, and set up a squeeze collet to crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight. And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best. Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no block to the primer gases coming out through the Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little. These will handle 20,000 psi loads.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup. It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel, that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use 3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
548 members (222Sako, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 22kHornet, 222ND, 10Glocks, 62 invisible),
2,624
guests, and
1,285
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,381
Posts18,527,562
Members74,031
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|