Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles 30-06, 208AMax, RL17

You might want to go back do a search and read some of JB's posts on how little long seating bullets and the small increase in capacity makes on velocity potential.

Moly doesn't increase velocity potential without increasing pressure nearly as much as some people assume.

I think you might be exaggerating the effects of small differences in case capacity and seating depth, but don't take my word for it read what JB has put in print about it, he's a better writer than I and has hung around some ballistic labs. Maybe he might comment on this for himself which would be better yet.

The thing is that I'm not guessing about anything. I usually have data that has been actually pressure tested and shot not just calculated. I have velocities that I actually measure in my gun. If you don't exceed the books maximum listed loads and don't exceed their max listed velocities at their COAL with the same components you can be pretty sure you aren't exceeding max listed pressures (this per Ken Oehler on the earlier thread).

Simply put I agree with Brad. If I want 200gr bullets going faster than the listed velocities of the 308 or 30-06 I'll buy a 300 Mag (well, I have several). I don't beleive that it's smart to push a caliber beyond it's limits. I also hope that RL-17 turns out to be a great powder for the 308, I have a bunch of them. I just don't think it's smart to go so far beyond published limits to squeeze the last Nth out of a round................................................DJ



My only complaint is that the Remington Small Pistol primers I bought were actually Small Pistol Magnum primers (marked 5 1/2). So be carefull about what you actually buy.
Also they are noticably thicker than WW and Federal, you can't fit quite as many in the primer filler tubes for my Dillon.
Anyway I got 10,000 of them cheap, so I'll adjust my loads down to where they are safe and then shoot em up.

They work just fine but be sure about which they are i.e. std or magnum and load accordingly................

Just wondering how he safely subs Mag primers for std. with no listed loads or pressures with same.

Chrony? Extrapolation?

In a handgun...

This is where the naysayers raise the fact that the SAUM runs at 65K lbs-psi. So can the 30-06. Just like the 25-06, 270, and 338-06 do. No difference whatsoever in a Rem 700, or similar modern arm.

Considering my loads are below SAUM performance, it becomes obvious that my loads are actually below 65K somewhere. - Shane

Nothing petty at all, besides a difference of opinion and Shane can argue his points fine.

Let's say I have a revolver chambered for a certain cartridge, lets make it a popular one, since obscure wildcats are verboten; (since I have never ran RL-17 in a 30/06 and I'd be guessing, though I could sit back and pick on loads of someone who has). - I have shot RL-17 in 3 other rifles BTW, it wasn't so magic in them.

My bullets and my gun are designed to seat bullets flush with the cylinder face (large throat), the chambers are large, much larger than cut in a pressure barrel.

Magically my powder capacity, OAL and published data is now going to allow me to never get close to a book MAX speed, pressure, and I'm certain to get the maximum powder charge in the case, despite finding a fuel on the slower end.

What you were saying in the thread was that should I work up my loads and go beyond MAX data I have now subjugated all to heresay and guessing and my data for my gun is not safe, correct? If you start going beyond the max load data for your gun you are probably also going beyond max pressures. Your fat chambered gun likely will not acheive normal max velocities without going over max pressures.

Oh yeah, there is only two companies who list pressure tested data and their COL are much shorter, chambers tighter as well as throats....useless? No.
What if I have QL or something like it on top of that? That's not useless either, if I'm working up carefully. What if this load was fired 100 times; a thousand with no signs or issues? If I just punched the numbers and poured in the Max, well, I'd reap what I sowed.

Could my max speed and powder charge be more than anything listed, or is it confined to manual data? For you it may be where you would not tread. Fine. And of course loading your fat chambered gun to std max velocity to one thing, loading it to 200fps faster is another thing yet.

Loading to get the book velocities is no guarantee regarding pressures. Getting the book velocities might tend to imply that you had close to book pressures, but there is no guarantee. You must have enough pressure to get the velocity, but getting the expected velocity does not mean the pressures behaved. On the other hand, exceeding book velocities is a guarantee that you exceeded book pressures.
KenO

My opinion is that pressures in the 70 -75 Kpsi range can be generated either operating within published loads with a very "tight" barrel, or operating slightly outside published loads with a "normal" barrel. We've fitted strain gages to many barrels in which the user has already worked up loads with the conservative method of increasing charge until he sees "pressure signs" and then backing off a little bit. These load/gun combos usually indicate in the 70-75K psi range or approximately midway beetween "max average pressure" and "proof pressure".
We've seen sufficient variation between individual barrels to realize that just staying within loading manual ranges is not an absolute guarantee of modest pressure.

Operating in the 70-75Kpsi range may be relatively safe, but you must recognize that you've removed a significant part of the safety margin put into place by the manufacturer. A minor change of components could easily bump the pressure well into the proof range.

KenO

I'll just throw out the following:

1. Most loads that I've seen developed to "just below obvious pressure signs" have shown 70K - 75K psi when tested.
KenO

Having had the opportunity to examine many cases after firing in instrumented guns and barrels (copper, conformal, and strain gage), I have totally lost confidence in my being able to reliably estimate even maximum pressure by feel or examining fired cases. .............................................

KenO

Then why are the SAUM and WSM cases made so much heavier and stronger?...................DJ

Bullet manufacturers will sell their bullets. They almost do not know what is in the powder canister they used for testing. Is the powder used for creating a load for the loading manual on the fast side or slow side of the tolerance band?

That is something a powder manufacturer is knowing and therefore I would trust loading data from powder manufacturers.
But things have changed. Some manuals even publish loads touching the maximum average pressure set by SAAMI or CIP.

This will not work in real world. Because the statistics will show if you put that max. load in a sample of 20 cartridges a great amount of them violates safe conditions.

Hartmut

I can't speak for Dr. Oehler or Shane, but a 38 loaded with the OAL of a 357 (There are 38's you can do this with) is going to have more velocity potential with more powder than a std 38 load fired in a 38, at the same pressure. But why not just use 357 mag brass if you are loading them to that OAL? Is 357 mag brass built to withstand higher pressure than 38 specials? (I don't know but it seems like it would be)



When housed in 357s they can be worked up to similar levels as, well, a 357.....and exceed book velocities of a 38, with more powder and pressure and be totally safe. Your basically using speed and pressure data for essentially the same volume of space.

Capacity allows increases in speed.

Wadcutter loads are lighter than SWC loads at the same pressure, for a reason, a 222 Mag will shoot faster than a 223, for a reason.

Get a strain gauge or quit reloading? Fine. I won't beat you over the head with it. I absolutely never said any such thing. I've said that same thing all along - that I think exceeding the Powder companies load data by 4-6 grains and getting velocities 200fps faster isn't good safe reloading practice.