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Broad brush, deft strokes...

Problem there or just maligning the profession in general?

There are lots of good prople that are also outfitters.
Thats not the point. I feel the endless comercialization of hunting has started a race to the bottom in hunting ethics.
One of the biggest draws to immigrants to North America was the fact that fish and wildlife belonged to the people and not some monarchy. The last thing I would want to see is hunting as practiced in Europe become the standard in North America. Unfortunately we are well down that road now.

All:

Thanks for the discussion.

Yes, hunters will find a way to pay for it if they really want it...

I just decided by the late 80's that the guide fees in particular would be a moral embarrassment at $4-6,000 [1985] if I disclosed paying those sums...so I quit applying when I got a refunded $900 desert big horn tag application fee back from Nevada in 1985, and I bought a much needed new pick-up [with a bank loan].

I do have a custom 7x57 Sako that I had a big horn sheep engraved on the floor plate...so I can dream on that.

While I can understand the sentiment, I do not see the connection between the two as linear as you do. In fact, I see the opposite quite often.



Broad brush again - main difference is that MOST (not all) european countires a have a system that bases the hunting right to land ownership/stewardship. Wildlife does not belong to anyone.
That in itself has not yet anything to do with commercialism and / or ethics.

I do not think you know to much about hunting in Europe.

If you are interested lets discuss the issue point by point - not broad brushes from 'real' hunting over helicopters, guides, general hunting systems and ethics.

Point 1 could be:

Commercialisation of hunting and hunting ethics - exclusive or beneficial?

Point 2 could be:

Freedom to hunt - Can all hunt anything anytime?

Point 3 could be:

Hunting systems: Does 'Patent hunting' or 'Area hunting' best protect resources while maintaining interests of Point 2?

Just some quick thoughts to straighten the discussion - against Locos advice, I locked on before my morning coffee.

This thread started as a sheep hunting topic. Today sheep hunting is one of the last hunting expieriences that can only be had on public land. Most sheep perhaps with the exception of desert sheep live on vast tracts of Public Land. Public Land is the rock on which North American hunting has evolved. Having vast tracts of public owned land and public owned wildlife has always been the keestone that has kept our hunting availalble to all and less exclusuve than Europe.
In Europe the land owner has simply replaced the monarchy...........not much of an improvement over peasant days. When wildlife is managed by the landowner, management goals would be very different than when managed for the public. Also I have no idea how large prdetors would survive by having a new management scheme in place every time a bear crossed a fence. This may explain why there are none.
The first bear to arrive in germany in a 150 years was shot for killing a chicken I believe............not a very good system for improving wildlife diversity.
Commercialization has undermined this system immensly over the past few decades.
Texas style hunting was always an anomoly and developed entirely due to a complete lack of public land. While land owners may not own the wildlife they do control access to it. In fact by fencing their properties they have managed to find a way to remove a public resource and make it their own. Our local outfitters are lobbying hard to do the same by increasing their quotas on sheep. In order to do this they would have to remove tags from the resident hunters. Outfitters are also leaning on air taxi operators to keep resident hunter out of their areas which happen to be public land based. Finally outfitters mastered the air spotting and hunting methods simply because it improves thd bottom line. The quicker you can get a hunt over the lower your overhead. Just a good business practise but detremental to my hunting expierience.

I don't know where you get your information about desert sheep hunting, but your wrong about desert sheep not being found on public land. Almost all of it is. The only exceptions I know of are indian lands and they don't have many sheep compared to the public lands.
Desert sheep hunting isn't that expensive, if you have the tag. It does require the ability to get around in the desert and some ability to find them. You aren't required in most areas to have a guide. Heck, when you go to the mandatory orientation meeting, chances are very good you'll be told where to find the rams. On top of that, the seasons are often quite long. E

quote=Eremicus] I don't know where you get your information about desert sheep hunting, but your wrong about desert sheep not being found on public land. Almost all of it is. The only exceptions I know of are indian lands and they don't have many sheep compared to the public lands.
Desert sheep hunting isn't that expensive, if you have the tag. It does require the ability to get around in the desert and some ability to find them. You aren't required in most areas to have a guide. Heck, when you go to the mandatory orientation meeting, chances are very good you'll be told where to find the rams. On top of that, the seasons are often quite long. E
[/quote]

I assume most desert sheep are on public land but am suggesting that more desert sheep may be on private land than some other species. For instance, not a single stone sheep occurs on private land but I know of many California Bighorn (poor mans desert sheep) that roam on private land for parts of the year.

TZ,

sorry for being persistent. You points and beef are clear:

1) you belive public access hunting is to better from a conservational point of view than land owner hunting.

2) you believe all commercial hunting to the same - broad brush.

Your example of europe is flawed - the bear (bruno) was shot on public land (forest service) by government employees after a political decision - which was and is very much debated.

Our hunting system, while linking hunting rights to land titles, is very much different from your private property rights -

here is how: By law, any piece of land that is not 'appeased' (fence around a house) very strict definition) HAS to be hunted.

There is a hunter/group on every spare meter of Germany responsible - how does that fit with your angst?

To go back to the sheep hunting - I just this Fall guided three Dall Sheep hunters to three dall sheep rams. Two took their rams 1 and two days over their booked time - at No extra charge.

We are not business men, as you can see by that, we are hunters and guides. Client satisfaction has been #1 concern in the outfit I work for for now the 49 season. How does that go with your angst?

We really are not on different sides here - I totally understand where you are coming from, by beg to differ on the generalizations.

Thanks.

I guess my firmest belief is that wildlife does and should belong to the public. I too own land (though not very extensive) and game such as grouse,moose and bears are frequently visitors. At no time does it occur to me that this is somehow MY moose.
I also have many friends who guide (such as yourself) and I live in a small town home to 6 large outfitters. The hunting business is getting larger and larger. Many outfitts are now becoming syndicates with concessions all over the world. I'm sure your boss got paid for the hunts provided..........that does make you a participant of the hunting business.
I believe far more Europeans wish to hunt North America than vise versa.Perhaps that fact alone could suggest that we offer a better hunting expierience and our current system is worth preserving. BTY Locally it seems German hunters prefer moose and bear over sheep.

I have started in on comments several times on this thread, but I just don't think I'll say much more than I'm a sheep hunter, and proud of it. You get it or you just don't.
Don

I made multiple trips to my hunting unit. I spent 18 days total looking for my Ram. It took 14 days before I even saw a ram. A lot of those days alone learning the country and learning how to spot sheep. I had several offers from guides offering to take me out for $5,000. I didn't have the money and I felt I was a good enough hunter to figure it out myself.

As I talked to other sheep hunters after my hunt, I've learned that I was not that different from many others. Maybe affluent hunters who can afford to buy tags at the various auctions can afford guides and not afford the extra time. But there are a lot of folks who are lucky enough to draw a tag and have to do the hunt themselves. The only way to learn how to hunt sheep, is to go spend the time on the mountain.

The year after my hunt, I went with a friend to help him with his hunt. With all the lessons I learned on my hunt, I was able to help my friend harvest a great ram the first day we hunted. So who had the better hunt? My friend who shot a much better trophey than I in one day or me, who got to spend 18 days in the desert?

TZ,

forgive me if I now back out of the discussion.

You say

as if members of this regulated profession that I am very much a part of, both in germany and in AK, are syndicated mobsters.

I leave you to your paranoia.

As to the comparison of the hunting systems Germany / North America -

Wildlife belongs to no one by law in Germany. Anyone who is elgible to hunt (qualifications apply) finds ample opportunity to do so.

Comparing percentages of cross atlantic travels between two countries as different in size and landmass as North America and Germany and as different in hunting culture and participants (22 Mio vs. 300.000) is quite flawed.

BTW - I have passed no judgement on which system is 'better', just wondered how much you really know about the one you use as a scarecrow.

Take care.

tz

Hmmm only took me 27 years of applying to get a tag here in WY. Once in a lifetime tag for me. Will never get the chance to hunt sheep again unless I draw a tag in the lower 48. Can't afford dall or stone sheep. Worked my butt off to get in the best shape I could. Yes I hired an outfitter mainly for his horses and knowledge of the area as due to my job I did not have time to scout the area. Also since this was my ONLY chance at this long awaited tag I wanted to use his knowledge. BTW I got within 30 yds of my ram. I let him walk out to 80 yds to wait for him to turn his head so I could make sure it was the right one. This was on public land. The rifle I used was a 7mm RM with a 6x scope which I put together in the early 90's in hopes of drawing a sheep tag.

I take exception to your broad brush remarks. That is all I have to say.

A friend of mine drew a Buffalo tag a few years ago. It's also a Once-in-a-Lifetime tag. He went down and hunted. He never saw a buffalo. Each night a guide would troll past his campsite hauing out a buffalo that he had guided a client to that day. After several days of this, my friend realizing that he only had 1 day left to hunt, hired the guide and paid the $2000 he wanted for his fee.

The next morning they went out, he was doubled up with a second tag holder. The guide lead them directly to the herd of buffalo, both men harvested their animals. the guide worked his tail off to get all the meat, hide and heads off the mountain for his customers. So in this case the guides knowledge was key to filling a once in a lifetime tag. The guides work ethic was just important after the kill at getting the animal off the mountai. My friend was so impressed with the guide, that he has since hired him to help take a trophey elk and a trophy cougar.

So I do believe their are guides who earn their keep. Who spend the time on the mountain to learn about the game they hunt. But I personally prefer to try to do it on my own.

I guess I wonder how you would feel as a resident of Wyoming if the state GAVE most of the sheep tags to the outfitters, to do as they please. Also lets make clear these sheep live on public land.
This would end 27 years of waiting for a tag, you would only need to contact an outfitter and write a check for 27K and off you go sheep hunting. Sounds like a win win to me.
This is the agenda being pushed by the British Columbia Guide Otfitter Association. They have full time paid lobbiest and the resident joe is just busy making a living to push back as hard. I am not paranoid, just hate being robbed.

I was wrong, I have a few more comments.

I don't care it hey reside on public or private land, the "wildlife" is not owned by anyone.

That is why we fought that program back in the 80's and 90's. There was even a law suit filed to do such a thing and it was defeated in court. Get the bug out of your system. you are preaching to the choir here. IF you THINK I am for giving the licenses to the outfitters you could not be more wrong.

Pay $27K for a hunt, I don't think so. I saved long and hard for the sheep hunt I did get to go on. I even questioned paying as much as I did and it was NOHWERE near that amount. But in retrospect it was worth every penny I spent as I will never get to do it again!

Instead of trying to pick an argument here, I suggest you get proactive on your gripe where you live. The excuse of being too busy making a living doesn't fly with me, not if you have time to sit at a computer to post here and hunt.

That might be in places like Canada, but, down here, in Kalifornia and Nevada, the California Bighorn live on public land almost w/o exception.
BTW, they are not desert sheep. E

Well sure not trying to pick an argument with you or anyone else. I don't suppose we have to aggree on everything in here either. I'm just contributing my take on where the business of sheep hunting is trying to take us......... from my perspective and local. In this jurisdiction, wildlife legaly belongs to the public.
I firmly believe that commercialization of hunting is going to be the death of the sport as we know and knew it. I only hope my kids will be able to enjoy as much of access to their birthright as I have had.
BYW, I am doing more than bitching on the internet. I know talk is cheap while the Outfitters Association works very much behind closed doors. It will take more than a few tweets to save my sport from a complete sell out to comercial interests.

Perhaps not considered so by the B and C, but in his sheep bible "Great arc of Wild Sheep" James Clark seems to leave that determination a bit grey.
I have never seen a bighorn sheep with the long pointy ears like the desert except in California Bighorns. I'm sure their are other differences and similarities and I am no biologist..just a hunter.
BTW...........almost all the Cali Bighorns in the USA are decendents from British Columbia reintroductions.

My apologies. It seemd to me that you were.



I agree with you on this.



While I believe there is a need/use for outfitters and a right for them to do business, I do NOT feel the states or provinces owes them anything (licenses or a means to make a living). We fought the license issued directly to outfitters tooth and nail. After all the letters I wrote I was surprised I could hire one when the time came. My sheep outfitter and I discussed this very issue. He was dead set against the state providing licenses directly to outfitters too. He felt that the association needed to do a better job of policing its own ranks. We both agreed the program was noting more than welfare assistance....