Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Another Berger VLD failure !

JLM,

Yup, he's one of those New York mountain men.

If we assume he was born in 1942, then he's 10 years older than I am. I encountered my first wild grizzly at age 8, probably about the time Pompous Twit was starting to perfect his ass-shooting technique on NY whitetails....

I doubt I will provide any enlightenment here, but since I have sacrificed most of 2010 reading this post I thought I would reinforce some assertions here and offer up a test.

First, I have personal experience with the Berger's in 168 gr 7mm RM(1deer @ 350 yards, 1 Bull Elk @ 350 yards) and 115 gr 25-06(1deer 88 yards and 1 deer 410 yards). Both of the 7mm 168's where exactly as advertised with 4" penetration then explosive damage. Both went through bone on the way in. The .257 rounds were not as advertised. Three of the 6 rounds went through with pencil sized holes in and out, with little or no damage to the lungs. All of these shots failed to touch any bone at all with shots broadside through the ribcage. A third shot blew up the liver. I apologize for not shooting any through the keyster for test purposes

I do call this a failure and I wonder if this was due to the smaller caliber? I have read a few posts asserting that this is somewhat common on small caliber hollow points due to the small hole. I have actually read this is common with the TSX's. I feel confident that if I had his anything more solid than lung tissue, even a paunch full of grass then the bullet would have expanded.

I was learry to start using a "Target" bullet and have read posts for 4 years before taking them up. I first learned about them from "Best of the West" show, where they kill lots of animals with them. The have promoted the "delayed" expansion. I purchused John Burn's video tapes where he does a test my shooting into wet newspaper and then large beef bones, shoulders or leg bones. The results where complete pass through all bones at both short and long distances then fragmentation that provided for 12+ inches of penetration.

Based on my experience and the many many reports I have NO issues using my 168's on elk/moose at short or long distances as I believe it has been documented that THESE vld bullets will penetrate through the bones and create major hydrostatic shock. This is different than the many reports of other VLD target bullets that are known to blow up in the first inch, not 4" and that is a HUGE difference. I also believe clearly that there is a difference between their Hunting and Target rounds and that any cartridge company as big as Berger isn't going to LIE about this kind of difference as their LAWYERS will not let them.

To prove this, let's simulate some tests.

First, let's get some current bullets and cut them. Additionally let's invite the guys from Berger to explain it to us.

Second, let's get some bones and media and fire bullets into them.

I think one of the best posts in these 27 pages of posts, referred to the two camps of bullets 1. Deep penetrating, high penetration, blood trail TSX's vs 2. Full energy releasing, DRT type VLD's. I believe the accubond and partition types fall between these two with 50% weight retention and smaller exit holes. So, I would consider these tests a success and the bullets reliable if they can go THROUGH the bones and have at lease 8-12" of significant penetration.

P.S. I will be happy to take my 7mm RM w/ 168 Bergers into Grizz country while you come along with your single shot smoke pole.

Im eating elk!

BKondeff,

I have seen a bunch of animals shot with the .25 115 VLD's and they have always expanded. I wonder if you got hold of some of the first strictly-target models, where the problem was detected. It took a little while for the Berger folks to figure out that the minor change in the target model caused some of the bullets not to open.

The expansion of VLDs has nothing to do with the "hollow point." In fact it's closed on both models; you can't even get a sharp pin into it. Instead the thin point on the jacket apparently collapsed, since there's nothing but air inside the jacket just behind the tip. You can see this on the sectioned bullets posted on this thread.

Pops? How many accounts do you need here on the fire??

POPS
IraqLion
Fotis??

How many more???

.............You forget to mention our "most esteemed" collegue and VLD hater,,,,,,,Mr. Oldman1942!!!!

Successful personal experiences, accounts and facts from the many VLD users be damned.

I guess he passed on my earlier proposal, as he more than likely would have read my offer by now!!!

My " Pop" account has been locked out since Last May. I do not know why. Several attempts to unlock have been fruitless. If I were hiding my identity my current signature would in fact be different. So in light of this I re registered under Fotis which is my real name.
I am not Oldman1942 nor do I know the gentleman. But since you brought it up let me set the record straight,

I do shoot bergers. So far specifically the 210 VLD's in the 300 RUM.
I am working on them with RL25 and Retumbo. (Remember I am the one who suggested reading JB's New Zealand hunting article so they way the VLD's work can be comprehended better.)
Up to now I was using 168 TTSX's and180, and 200 gr accubonds.
Alas a tinkerer will always be a tinkerer and can not leave well enough alone. So I am handloading them now. Have not shot them though.
I have always been a proponent of super duper penetration however I can accept the Berger performance because they do seem to be repeatable. 2-3 inches of penetration and then crazy expansion and energy dump. I can live with that because the dump is in the vitals. I have personally seen what a 115 VLD does to a muley from a 257 Bee. Antelope too.

Now as far as the other target bullets go, in my mind the jury is still out as far as consistency and repeatability goes. Again this is based on others' experience and not mine--with these (a-maxes SMK's etc). Can not speak from personal experience on other match type designs.
To be honest I would love for all bullets to be game worthy (whatever that means) so we can have a greater selection.
Who would not love a SMK with great BC and accuracy and use it for everything? I would. Short range, long range whatever.

So I think my time is the confession booth is up fellas. Take it for what it is worth. I am not here to make trouble and I am sorry some of you feel that way.


BTW I fail to see the resemblance. Although I'd rather have the elk in the freezer than a speed goat any day.

Oldman1942



Fotis

Pop, thanks for your service, I had been out 17 years before you got in. The "non servers" here assume that anyone who might not embrace the ideas that they DEMAND you do, cannot be more than ONE person because, after all "they" are the experts and all others are fools. Amusing but irrelevant to the real world.
Nice speed goat you have there!

My 08' buck:


Good hunting and ignore the brat pack keyboard commandos.

where is your musket old buzzard

i would like to be put on your ignore list like most on the sight but did not want to bump your stupid gun auction up so i held my request tell now

I have a LOT of guns, isn't that the "fun of it" or does running your keyboard commando mouth get you hard?

I'll remedy you're being overlooked right now.