Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Lucky Break- Now what?

Rumor has it, you boys are in for some snow down that way?!?! Or at least part of the state.

Opening muzzle up this way, and late muzzle the following weekend in NY. Hope I can make the triumph blow smoke at least once more this year.

Snowing all morning here but only 42 in town. I suspect at the house we have accumulations by a bit, its starting to stick to roof valleys right now. MIGHT get 3 inches today, its been really light flurry type so far and sleet off and on. Denys has even a better shot at it maybe than I do as the moisture is more the further SE you go.

Really good conversation here so far.

Denys-- man thats gotta SUCK to do IPSC ammo amounts single stage... DANG...... Double DANG....

Heck I hate loading ammo but did almost all our highpower single stage because I'm a dumbazz thats anal about little things that really don't matter..... But I better get really anal quick for the 1000 yard stuff thats coming.

We did get snow, it was coming down pretty good this afternoon, but it has stopped now and the skies are clearing a bit. It's going to be a cold one tonight, low twenties.

I just don't see using a progressive to load the 1000 yard (or any F-class) ammo. I use my Chargemaster to get very accurate powder loads and I clean my brass and I resize it just so, and I seat the bullets while rotating them and so on...

unless you are the palma team...

Stay warm. Ihave to get home to get some more plants covered, and wrap one more pipe on the new house thing I forgot about.

Funny low twenties, we are only forecast for 28 here. But its clear already and seems much colder than the 43 it says out side.

We are hitting low twenties as well. Going to be good in the morning..force the deer to the pines...where me and my brother and father are.

What caliber are you guys shooting to 1000 yardS???

Keep it going. . .

FMP

You'd laugh if I told you what the only round I've shot to 1000 is. 223 iron sights service rifle. Loaded with 90 jlks, won the service part of a palma match, 800,900 and 1000... and against all the big bolt guns won the 800 and 900 outright and had bad elevation troubles vs my vision at 1000 to settle in to a meager 3rd place in state champs with that gun....

I do have a 308 on the way though, but most likely I'll piddle with it until I get my service rifle built back up for 1000 and then shoot 223 until I shoot a perfect score at 1000 with it, and then move over to F class...

right on.

I have shot 500 with a .22-250 a few times with decent results.

I love shooting paper.

Odds are you shot it with light bullets and the wrong twist for best results, to be honest I've shot 1000 with quite a few rounds from small to big, and a 22-250 twisted to 7 or 8 and running 80 or 90s ain't nothign to sneeze at, at 1000

I can't wait to get my rifle. I am tempted to pull the money from a place that I shouldn't touch, and bring it out the store tomorrow. However..I probably shouldn't and just do my three installments as planned.

YOu think I should order a couple boxes of 175 feds and a box of something else?

YES for the 175 federal. If the wallet allows it, at least 5 boxes. Good brass to work with for handloading if you go that route too. I'm going to c/p what I posted below in the reloading forum just for the heck of it.

c/p:
Mathmans advice regarding neck wall thickness is key here. And I do respect his input and wisdom very much!

Here is why neck thickness is key:
The likelyhood that if the neck walls are a uniform thickness means that the shoulder area and the case body walls beyond the neck/body junction are also uniform (close to the same) thickness. IMO it's the neck/shoulder region of most importance to inducing "runout" during sizing AND bullet seating functions. Visualize the neck & shoulder as a funnel. Now visualize that the "wall" or material thickness of the funnel is thinner on one side. If you apply a tensile load (pull) on the end of the spout of the funnel the side of the funnel at the spout/funnel body that is thinner will yeild while the thicker, therefore stiffer, will resist yeilding.
Likewise, applying a compressive (pushing) load on the end of the spout, the side of the funnel with the thinner walls will yeild whereas the thicker walled side will resist yeild.

What this boils down to is that during the press upstroke the case is forced into the die cavity, brass flows, and assuming die/shell holder alignment and so forth are correct, there will be zero runout of the now sized case. This is true of any sizing die.

For die that has an expander stem, on the downstroke of the press, where the case is drawn down and the die "expander" button engages the now undersize neck I.D. a tensile load is induced upon the case. Say the shoulder/neck walls are of non-uniform thickness, the shoulder/neck junction will yeild a bit while the expander button is pulled through the neck. Runout, or think of it as the neck axis is now "crooked" out of alignment with the case body axis, is the result. If the wall thickness is fairly uniform the tensile load will induce little mis-alignment of the neck/case body axis. Note: it's a real GOOD practice to lube the inside of case neck, being sure to get lube at the shoulder/neck junction.

Also, bushing and Lee collet dies do not typicaly induce runout during sizing. However, when the too large neck is forced into the smaller neck sizing region of the die residual stress may remain in the case neck/shoulder region which will cause the neck to shift a bit out of axial alignment when the case is drawn out of the bushing or collet die. Most affected are case that have a large difference in wall thickness.

Ok, bullet seating. Potential problems here too. Typical interferance (press) fit of bullet/neck is 0.001-0.003". Assume that the bullet axis will be aligned perfectly to the case axis. Case neck mouth is square to the case axis. If the shoulder/neck walls are uniform thickness, during the applied compressive load of bullet seating no yeild of the shoulder/neck junction will occur. The now seated bullet should result in a loaded cartridge that has near zero runout.

If shoulder/neck wall thickness is not uniform, yeild may occur, and the cartridge will have "runout", or a non-concentric condition of the bullet axis in relation to the case body axis.

So, result is that some cartridges will have near zero runout, some will have unsuitable runout. Myself, I have noted better accuracy from carts. that have little runout. Whole set of conditions enter that discussion though. Tight chamber-vs-loose chamber, and so on.

JMO though.

and this:
In this pic is a concentricity gage I used to manufacture. Simple and effective. Also in pic is a tool I've made that is used to correct run-out. A simple angle plate with holes that are a bit over case neck OD. Measure run-out in gage, mark which side is high. Insert cartridge neck into hole. Apply bending force until a slight yield is felt. Measure. Repeat if necessary. Much less expensive than the Bersin tool. Less complex too. I adjust all my F-TR (308) ammo that has more than 0.002" run-out in that tool.



and this:
Agree that trigger time and technique, as well as consistent hold, trigger squeeze, sight picture, shoulder weld, and so on are important. Note in the photo above I'm correcting runout on milsurp 762x54r ammo. The old Mosins I shoot that ammo in do perform better than when shooting same ammo from its can non-corrected.

quote: "If you're meassuring necks and not turning necks, what's the point of measuring them"

Point is measuring wall thickness. Uniform wall thickness is not only a runout concern during the loading process. Uniform wall thickness also impacts the bullet transition, "release" from the neck.

random imo info, ymmv!

I've shot F-TR in .223 for a few years and reached Sharpshooter status in NRA F-class Long Range with my AR-15. I switched over to the .308 some months ago and have now almost reached Expert. My goal is Master in LR and High Master in MR. I already have one score in for HM in mid-range, just have not be able to get another just yet.

Well- 5:18 here, about to head out to the woods.

good luck, I decided to skip the house hunt, was 22 when I got up and no deer is gonna graze on oats/wheat/clover with all this frost. I'll look at em this evening instead.

Pic of the new rig!



-Benelli Nova 12 3 1/2"
-Remington 870 12 3 1/2"
-Remington 700 KS Mountain Rifle, .270 Win Vx3-3.5-10
-Remington 700 5R Milspec .308 Win Vx2 6-18
-Weatherby Vanguard Sporter .300 Weatherby Vx2 3-9
-Weatherby Vanguard Sub-Moa .257 Weatherby(Unscoped)Vx2- 4-12
-Marlin Guide Gun .45-70(Unscoped)(No idea what I am putting on it)
-Marlin Model 30AS .30-30 Open Sights
-Winchester Model 1894 .32 Special
-Thompson Center Custom Shop Stainless Steel Triumph(Not Weather Shield) Leupold- Shotgun Muzzleloader
-Stainless Thompson Center Omega(Not Pictured)


-

Nice collection, that 1894 looks real nice. Never had a lever gun, always wanted one. Some day!

Now, range time for the new addition to the family!

Cant wait...I bought 3 boxes of 175 Feds...and 2 boxes of 168's to wring her out with!!

-The 1894 is wonderful, and shoots like a dream- but has been retired now for a short time. It was my great grand fathers, and was actually handed down to my father.

Octagon barel is a great touch as well!

-I would recommend one of the guide guns...so handy and my go to rifle (when it has glass on it)

I"d LOVE an old one in 32... I have one in 32-20 that I hunt with, want a 32 and a 25-35 for some reason if I ever find them.

So, I finally got to shoot my 5R today with 175gr Fed gold match, and 175 gr black hills red box.

All in all it shot well for only having about 20 loads through it. The fed gold shot best, with a best group of 3/8", the second best at a 1/2" and the rest sub 1" 3 shot groups. It was VERY cold and snowing quite hard, so optimal conditions were not present.

(Seen here...my first shot after initial adjustment..adjusted to where the 2nd shot is, then made one last adjustment where I shot 3 shots- the group measured 3/8")



(Here is a 1/2 inch group after the barrel had gotten a bit dirty)



*As said..these are the BEST groups of the day- and there where more (Bad) then good which I will admit.

-So, am I happy? Very...I think with hand loads, and more trigger time and barrel break in this gun can and will shoot better.

-I will keep you posted on future range reports.

FMP

Sweet FMP! Been doing anything with reloading gear?

Here is a 3 shot from my 308 FTR rig, 200 yards, 168smk, R15 powder.