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Originally Posted by Sprint11
Not evolution at all..Mearly, as was stated many times in the article, mutations. At the end of the experiment they were left with what they started with,,,,, e.coli.
But I thought you guys always said that all mutations are bad, and therefore that mutations could not be the mechanism by which evolution occurs.

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Before all starved to death, a small sample of the survivors was taken out each day and placed in a new container with the same limited supply of glucose.
Sounds like fewer organisms had the same amount of food as the larger colony. So is evolution the cause of expanding waistlines in better fed countries?


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

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Originally Posted by RickyD
So is evolution the cause of expanding waistlines in better fed countries?
Just too much junk food.

PS To do an equivalent experiment with human beings would take about a million years. There were 30,000 generations of E. Coli in the experiment discussed in the starting post. The mechanism by which the one colony adapted to metabolizing citrate for survival was that two mutations occurred, both of which were required to exist simultaneously for E. Coli bacteria to metabolize citrate for energy. If only one or the other mutation had occurred, they'd have been no better adapted for survival than the other eleven colonies.

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Originally Posted by Sprint11
Not evolution at all..Mearly, as was stated many times in the article, mutations. At the end of the experiment they were left with what they started with,,,,, e.coli.


Bingo. Most people pushing the concept of evolution do not even know what it is.

The interesting part of this experiment was missed... What happened to the control sample which wasn't exposed to the extreme conditions? Did it mutate at all?? and when the mutated strains were mixed with the control strains under normal conditions, did they survive?

Two mutations under constant, extreme conditions over 20 years and how many generations?? That's pretty weak. If it mutated into something that could crawl out of the petri dish go to the fridge and make a sandwich when it was hungry, I would be impressed.

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I don't suppose that they considered that the genes possibly were already there and their experiments killed off the dominant ones. It's called selective breeding.


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Micro-evolution is undeniable. Macro-evolution is the theory yet to be proven.

Two very different animals.


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dang i'm a slow typer... you guys beat me to it.

No one ever denied the definition of "evolution" as changes over time in populations. You still have E. Coli in the dish not fish or monkeys. Was the �mutation� available in the DNA prior to the test, probably? It is a stretch, and a slippery slope, to say because a population changes over time that must mean things can evolve into other/higher beings. This is bait and switch science.

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Interesting!

E. Coli bacteria makes E. Coli bacteria!

Just as planned!

Gen 1
Bible in Basic English
:25 And God made the beast of the earth after its sort, and the cattle after their sort, and everything moving on the face of the earth after its sort: and God saw that it was good.

The only way to build a strawman argument against Creationism is to establish Evolutionism as something completely different. Evolution science dose not ever get close to the beginning on life,math proves is random improbability, and the requirement of faith to believe in it makes it another religion.

Antlers to me show how 'sorts evolved' from the creation of it's sort.





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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
An experiment started twenty years ago on E. Coli bacteria reveals proof of evolution. A single strain of E. Coli was divided into twelve separate containers, never again to be mixed. Each day for twenty years each strain was supplied with a limited quantity of glucose for sustenance. The population would quickly expand, metabolizing all the available glucose, then begin to starve to death. Before all starved to death, a small sample of the survivors was taken out each day and placed in a new container with the same limited supply of glucose. After twenty years of this all twelve strains became more highly adapted to efficiently metabolizing glucose in such a way as to survive longer and longer on the same limited supply as compared to the starting strain, and each strain but two adapted in completely different ways. Two strains, by chance, adapted in exactly the same way via the exact same mutation.

But here's the important part: One strain became super adapted, far surpassing the other eleven, not only by doing as the others did, but by discovering a way (also via mutation) not only to more efficiently metabolize the limited supply of glucose, but by also discovering a way (also via mutation) to metabolize citrate as well, an incidental component of the glucose feed fed to all twelve colonies from the beginning, but which E. Coli can ordinary not make use of as food. This one colony became super adapted to the conditions of the experiment via mutation by "figuring out" (in the evolutionary sense), after twenty years (about 30,000 generations, or the equivalent of one million years for humans), how to metabolize citrate.

This strain reproduced each successive day to enormous numbers, and their population growth continued far beyond the point all the glucose was gone, and other colonies had died out from starvation, due to this one adaptation.

Furthermore - and here comes the real pay off - it was not a mere single mutation which permitted it to metabolize citrate for energy, but TWO independent mutations which had to exist simultaneously for E. Coli to metabolize citrate.


Quite an interesting experiment and obviously a difficult one to swallow for people who fear science and think that there is antinomy between evolution and God.

How can people not see that if the God they believe in exists, then evolution can be a part of His master plan???

What strange form of intellectual blindness!...

The_Real_Hawkeye, do you have references about this experiment ?


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[quote=deersmellerHow can people not see that if the God they believe in exists, then evolution can be a part of His master plan???

What strange form of intellectual blindness!...

[/quote]

Could be but evolution is not part of his plan or He would have told us so in His book. He said He created everything and you can't pick and choose which parts you believe.

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you think they would have believed jet aircraft or space travel had it been put in the book.....how would you have explained it to someone with no concept of a steam engine let alone jet propulsion?

lots of stuff not in the book that is true.....cant see how evolution cant fall under the heading "he created all" cause i would think you believe god is capable of isolating animal populations as in the Galapagos and send them down a different path....


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"Two mutations under constant, extreme conditions over 20 years and how many generations?? That's pretty weak. If it mutated into something that could crawl out of the petri dish go to the fridge and make a sandwich when it was hungry, I would be impressed."

The principle of DNA based evolution also accounts for slow, perhaps unimpressive, change. I have not read the publication but it is a absolute certainty that many more mutations occurred in the 20 years of the experiment. The two independent and concurrent mutations that conferred to one culture of E.coli the ability to metabolize citrate are just the two mutations that were most successful under the conditions of the experiment.

The criticism the there was nothing 'natural' about how the experiment was designed and carried out is somewhat shallow and more importantly, irrelevant. The goal of the experiment was to demonstrate proof of principle. Replicating Nature in all its nuances and complications in the test tube is not required nor even wanted. Allowing too many variables would make the data uninterpretable.

What occurred was that one culture of E.coli acquired two random mutations that modified a pre-existing metabolic pathway in the progeny bacteria and conferred to them the ability to live on a nutrient that the original culture could not. Exactly what the evolutionary process is proposed to do.

Designing a selection procedure for a frig raiding, sandwich making bacteria is just plain scary.




Last edited by carbon12; 11/17/09. Reason: correction
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Originally Posted by carbon12
Designing a selection procedure for a frig raiding, sandwich making bacteria is just plain scary.


laugh


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irreverent? More like irrelevant. And I doubt seriously that the issue was to prove proof of evolution via mutation and selection. That is so old hat as to be not worth the time. More likely the study was to look at HOW evolution was happening. That some strains got to the same place by the same mutations is pretty interesting to me. And I would guess guess that these lines were started from a plated culture such that all strains would date back to a single cell at the start of the experiment. So, no, the mutations did not pre-exist in the strains.

Bacteria raid my fridge all the time.

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"Bacteria raid my fridge all the time."

I like it!!!!!!!!!!


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Yep. Irrelevant. Thanks for the correction.

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Yeah....but do they make BLTs and eat them?

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"That some strains got to the same place by the same mutations is pretty interesting to me."
---------

Me too. That's awesome. 20 samples isn't very many, for two to experiment in the same direction, each taking 2 seperate steps in that direction and ending up in the same place is really an astonishing thing to me. I'd have never expected that in billions of years and by then I'd be some other species that wouldn't care anyway smile

I'm no evulophobe (is that a word?) Well, I don't think I am anyway, at least my penis didn't enlarge in circumference while reading. lol.

If nothing else this experiment proves that life will always find a way to survive. It says God IS life. So it makes perfect sense to me. Go ahead, try to kill Him off wink The individual or isolated colony may not survive and adapt to new surroundings but odds are pretty good the species will survive, and thrive. If evolution of species is truth it's nothing more than long term adaptation seeing to it that the strong survive. (Also brings to mind, liberals are doomed. That's inevitable) If adaptations in particular species are given enough time, who knows what could happen? Wait, I don't have to ask that... I know who knows....



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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by BrentD
Observing evolution is no big thing. Been done many a time.
The unique part of this one is contained in the last sentence.


It has been hypothesized that most important adaptations/speciesizations were two or more mutations occuring in the same individual, and that the two or more mutations were all beneficial--even one beneficial mutation is rare to begin with.

But heck, some strains of bacteria can mutate in 20 minutes.......at least in the lab they can.....


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Having said that, MAGA.
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