Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 45 Colt vs. 44 Mag - splain

This quote is dead nuts.

45 Long colt can not be loaded to max pressures in Smith's or older guns.

By only a nit pick bit though when looking at the blackhawk. I've loaded 320 gr @ 1300 fps out of a 4 5/8" 44 mag blackhawk.

If you're talking 5 shooter 45 loads, then you might as well look at 5 shooter 44 loads.

Were talking six shooters

And most guns with chambers oversize usually do lock up or show "pressure" signs. Even worse when coupled with FL re-sizing cases fired in such a chamber.

Hence, despite "weak" brass falsehoods, in a 5 shot, a 45 Colt case was a 454 Casull before headstamps and 1/10th of an inch made a 454 Casull. Go figure.

Comparing the 45 Colt to the 44 Mag: When in the realm of heavy solids, the 45 wins because of bore size, just like the 410 over 357, the 429 over the 410.

If you are looking for easy, by and large, a 240 JHP at 1,300 the 44 is the answer. However, anyone truly serious will contemplate cylinder size and modifications of such regardless of cartridge and match or make their bullets match these throats and grooves.

I can show you a 44 with .427 throats (629 DX) and one with .434 throats (29-2). I can also show you one with .430 throats. Yada, Yada, in 45; throats .449-.456, to .453.

I like the Speer connotation, even though they tout the 45 Colt as having weaker brass, not on par with the 44, their 300 gr. 45 Colt load is loaded to 25,000 CUP and the 44 300 gr. to 40,000 CUP, for the same speeds.....and some of you may cry foul when I say psi is NOT always higher than CUP figures when dealing with straight-wall cartridges, and often times are the nearly identical. But there it is, if you care to look.

Ask Brian Pearce, Ross Seyfried or John Linebaugh. I'm merely re-hashing what they already knew/did a long time ago.


I can assure you, these won't chamber in a SAA and function


If you are a klutz, lose your keys a lot or like to pass responsibility off, loading a 45 Colt in guns that Hodgdon recommends for heavy loads or some that Brian Pearce or others use with regularity to dupe the 44's speeds with less pressure and a larger bore size my not be for you. Same for knowing your gun's throat and bore and making things work. Don't even try....

If its too hard to figure out or just scares you, get a 44 Magnum or claim the Colt should remain an antique with 255 at 850 fps. They both work too.

Really ? The .44 Mag., Speer 300 gr. bullet has an SD of .233 while the .45 Colt's 300 gr. bullet has an SD of .211. Hardly a fair comparison. Try the 260 gr. .45 colt speer bullet at .183 vs. the .44 Mag., 240 gr. bullet at .186. Velocities are considerbly different for both.
The velocites produced by the above are 1451 fps. for the .44 Mag slug and 1183 fps. for the .45 Colt according to my #12 Speer manuel.
A few other points. I don't see where Hogden actually recommends those loads, they just list them. What's more important, neither does Ruger, who makes the gun.
This whole argument sounds good, but it means nothing. All .44 Mags are made for much higher pressure loads than those made for the .45 Colt. But, the big difference is that you can't tell just where your gun is pressure wise. You, yourself have pointed out some significant variations which will affect pressures. The other thing is revolvers don't give you any of the so called pressure signs that are dependable. Primer indications is all you get, and those are unreliable. E

Go to a few Linebaugh Seminars or shoot a few large animals and you will find the 44 will not pentrate as well as the 45. The 45 Colt loaded with 325 grain LFN consistently out penetrate the best loads in the 44

Also the 450 grain punch bullet in the 500 Linebaugh out pentrated all of the bullets in the photo no matter how much higher the sectional density of the other bullets




The SDarguement is lame at best

The comparison was that a strong 45 Colt can meet or exceed the 44 with a larger diameter bullet at less pressure, so we used a 300 gr. bullet. If a 360 suits you we can do that too.

If you actually read your Speer manual, the Colt TC/Ruger loads for all bullets BESIDES the 300 gr. load are rated 20,000-25,000 psi. The 300 grain load is for 25,000 CUP, and in this case is a higher pressure. If you doubt the CUP v. psi correlation for straightwalls at these levels, look at the speeds generated and powder charges for the 260 v. the 300 gr. load.

Your 240 44 loads, and all others are loaded to 36,000 psi, EXCEPT the 300 gr. load which is at a higher level (40,000 CUP). I can't help it if the 45 did pretty much the same at 25,000 CUP.

The 357 Mag data in the same manual goes from 36,000 psi for standard guns/bullets and 45,000 CUP for heavy bullet silhouette loads. Note the 158 gr bullets powder charges v. the 180 silhouettes.

FWIW, all loads are recommendations, even loads listed for 44's. The guns specified for their use are not. I guess that scares some. Fine, I'm not forcing them to do so. Heaven forbid, don't reload anything, buy "totally safe" ammo and live in bliss.

I also won't force them to use +P 38's, 45's, shotguns or any other loadings that may require common sense or knowledge of the firearm in question. To think there are ammo companies who make +P 38's for all these years.....or the 38/44 loads of old. Sounds like grounds for lawsuits, voiding warranties and published misuse? Unless....

Still doesn't account for the fact that the .429 mag just doesn't have the diameter of the .45.

and with the 45 Colt you can do that with a 350-360gr boolit with less pressure and less recoil. Easier on the gun and shooter as well.

Exactly!

If you were wondering WHY the .45 Colt compares to the 44 Magnum, its because the .45 Colt was in reality the first magnum handgun cartridge.
The very first magnum handgun was the Colt Walker-a true horse pistol, due to its size and heft, but the Walker was a cap and powder gun.
When the .45 Colt first came out it was a 250 RNFP in a copper case over 40 grains of compressed black powder. Both Millionaires, Mr. Pearce & Mr. Taffin wrote about shooting such original loads, and they clocked out of the Cavalry Colt at close to or at 1,000 fps. This load was released in 1873. This was in the age where handgun ballistics were solidly in the 700-800fps range.
Of course, the magnum status for the Colt did not last for long. Military loads were quickly eased to an unassuming 30 grains, while pretty good evidence exists that civilian loads were hotter, at 35 grains.
I am not aware of any records that accurately depict specific handloading practices, yet it is clear that if the handloader was capable of compacting his powder charge, he was capable of reaching original ballistics.
Today, the .45 Colt cartridge has changed quite a bit from its rip snorting youth. Today's brass is solid head, and thus offers less capacity than original cases. The cartridge rim has gotten both larger and thicker as well. Smokeless loads cannot duplicate the ability of black to obdurate the projectile to form a full gas seal in the bore.
In another fashion, the .45 compares in that it was a truly original creation. Remember, the 44 Magnum was nothing more than the special lengthened a tenth of an inch or so. The .45 Colt was created from scratch, because the military wanted a .45 Caliber cartridge capable of slaying man and beast. Yes, beast as well, because it was a tactic to shoot your attackers mode of travel out from under him.
Col. Armstrong Custer used the original Cavalry Colt with the original magnum load to hunt Buffalo-and he did so successfully.
The .44 magnum was created by the force of personality of Mr. Elmer Keith, not as a military load, but as a sporting round. Elmer was blessed to live in a time where people were remarkably civil to each other in our society, he wasn't looking for a dual purpose cartridge, just one that would drop any game he could put a bead on.
Today, the 44 Magnum remains the king in the sense that it is the practical limit for most to be able to master. Those who dedicate themselves, and who are born with wrists like twisted oak can deal with more, but the truth is that the 44 has already accounted for everything from Cape Buffalo to Polar Bears. Its hard to imagine another cartridge in the same class.
When black powder gave way to smokeless, the civillian loads in the .45 Colt disappeared, and loading became generic at or about 800-900 fps for a 250-255 RNFP. Some suggest that military .45 Colt smokeless loads clocked at the sedate velocities of around 750 fps.
Plenty of stories from the frontier exist telling of men armed with the Colt stopping all manner of adversaries-two legged and four.
It is important to note that the reputation for the 45 Colt was established AFTER the cartridge was reduced in powder charge some 5-10 grains. Something about a big heavy bullet at modest velocity simply = effectiveness.
I may have left a few things out. The history of both is much more convoluted and deep than can be easily typed in here by me, but it is my hope that this will at least provide an inkling of insight into both great cartridges, and how they compare.

DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I picked the 44 !

Your loss...

Help me out here, a 41 mag is a little less powerful than a .44, right? So why wouldn't you buy a .44 and load it down just a tad? What are the positives of the .41 over the .44?

Thanks.

What are the colored cannelures on the hard cast bullets for?

thanks.

You might be mistaking the lube ring on the bullet for the cannelure.

The .41 vs. .44 Mag debate continues on - kinda like the .270 vs. .30-06. I prefer the .44 Mag solely on the basis of the bigger hole it makes, and you could knock me off that preference with a feather.

A lube ring. Do handloaders put lube rings on their loads, what is the process? Does loading information include this or is it driver optional?

The lube ring is part of the finished bullet when cast. The loader can choose how many to fill with lube if there are multiple; this depends solely on lube quality.

A jacket was basically known as form of lube to prevent leading back in the day. Other designs used lube grooves to hold a type of lubricant to cut down pressure and friction, the causes of leading.

Swaged lead bullets have a film lube applied. They do sell cannelure tools that can be used to cut cannelures and lube grooves, but its pretty specialized and limited use for most.

Your right, why have a 44 when you can download the Colt? (grins).

I'm of the belief that JOG's feather comment sums up this thread, assuming that we all could recognize the 45 Colt to be more than a cap gun, which seems to be the argument.

The 429vs 41mag....VS 452.colt.... The saga continues....

Bigger holes please....

The 44mag reminds me of ice cream. It really is not a full quart either.....