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#3556792 - 12/09/09 Ballistics and meat damage  
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WSM_Fan Offline
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Theory ... your thoughts on the topic?
Damage to the meat is a function of bullet velocity, bullet diameter, and bullet contruction and not bullet weight. In fact, ft-lbs of energy is not a good gauge of potential meat damage, because it factors bullet weight to heavily.
A 338 Federal 200gr would do much less damage to the meat than say a 270WbyMag 140gr. My theory, the larger the diameter the bullet, the slower you should push it to preserve weight for the grill. Just saying that ft-lbs of energy isn't a good gauge to use in some cases.


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#3557046 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: WSM_Fan]  
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CrimsonTide Offline
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I would say that impact speed of a given projectile, the weight of this projectile, and the construction of the projectile are what determines damage to flesh.


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#3557075 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: CrimsonTide]  
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Oldman03 Offline
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I'm no expert, but I would think speed and what happens when the bullet hits flesh/bone would be the most important factors. A FMJ does little damage to the surrounding area regardless of weight or speed, but it has to at least have enough speed to penetrate one side of the target. If it has enough speed to go through the target thats ok. How the bullet reacts is probably most important. Does it mushroom, fall apart, etc... There is a company making a bullet that I saw on TV that will shoot through a metal plate, 1/4' thick, I think and turn into a powder that completely obliterates a ham. They claim there is nothing coming out the other side of the ham, if I remember correctly. Complete 100 percent meat loss on the ham. So, what the bullet does once it penetrates the target probably has the most to do with the damage.


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#3557234 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: Oldman03]  
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retrieverman Offline
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I won't speculate on how it works, but I have killed deer with calibers ranging from 223 up to 9.3x62. The 9.3x62 does MUCH less meat damage than a 223.

#3557236 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: Oldman03]  
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WSM_Fan Offline
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I've heard a lot of talk about the TSX being a good bullet to preserve meat. I'm assuming this is due to the tougher construction than typical lead bullets?


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#3557315 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: WSM_Fan]  
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country52 Offline
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I agree that bullet expansion, weight, diameter, velocity, and energy play a part in preserving meat on game. The main factor is simple bullet placement. If you want to save meat put the bullet behind the shoulder, the worst thing your going to do is lose a few strips of meat between the rib cage. I load rounds for the terrain of the area that im hunting. Just my 2 cents.

#3557329 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: WSM_Fan]  
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fu_redneck Offline
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Bullet construction is the main factor to consider when evaluating meat damage. I've shot smaller animals with my 338 win mag like rabits and experienced minimal meat damage (believe it or not, it's like someone else said about hitting them in the right spot and not hitting bone). I've hit coyotes in just the right spot with a 30-06 and you couldn't even tell where the hole was.

#3557338 - 12/09/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: fu_redneck]  
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mcmurphrjk Offline
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I think it is bullets coming apart due to high velocity for that particular bullet.
I also think that high velocity with any kind of expansion can make a mess.
A bullet staying in the animal (no exit wound) thereby expending all of it's energy in the animal will make a bigger mess than one that penetrates clear through, taking some of it's energy with it.


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#3557502 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: mcmurphrjk]  
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i can tell you that a 120 gn hornady in my 7mag will ruin twice as much meat as a 140-165gn . i think with any big caliber you really must stay off the shoulder to save meat. the best shot with anything is right thru the ribs.
with the 7mag if and light bullets if you hit far shoulder on exit you will lose the whole shoulder in most cases.

Last edited by srwshooter; 12/10/09.
#3557511 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: srwshooter]  
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ringworm Offline
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the 270 weatherby w/ a tough bullet on a deer sized animal wont do much damage because its in and out too fast.
if your worried about meat damage either buy a 45-70 and shoot cast bullets at 1400 FPS or shoot all your animals in the brain.
i dont eat much rib meat so as long as the bullet causes enough structural damage to the internal organs im good.
i have a 376 steyr that pushes a 235 gr speer SP nearly the speed of a 30-06 and it doesnt damage much meat at all, even w/ a broadside shoulder to shoulder shot. its just not inside long enough to expand into a shroom.


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#3557620 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: WSM_Fan]  
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Boggy Creek Ranger Offline
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Originally Posted by WSM_Fan
I've heard a lot of talk about the TSX being a good bullet to preserve meat. I'm assuming this is due to the tougher construction than typical lead bullets?


From my experience how much meat a TSX destroys depends entirely on how fast you are driving it.

In general, driven at the same speed and of the same weight a TSX will destroy less than any cup and core bullet in a side by side comparison.

BCR


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#3557812 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: Boggy Creek Ranger]  
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BlueDuck Offline
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Several factors involved. The more bone you hit, the more damage you get.

#3557825 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage - debate continues [Re: BlueDuck]  
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ringworm Offline
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the worst bloodshot meat i have ever seen was from a 243 grandslam bullet in the speer nitrex load. the least was a 45-70 405 grain hard cast load at -1500 FPS impact.
looked like a clean hole. like someone ran the buck thru w/ a piece of #4 rebar.


Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.
#3557855 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: ringworm]  
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kyreloader Offline
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Originally Posted by ringworm
the 270 weatherby w/ a tough bullet on a deer sized animal wont do much damage because its in and out too fast.
if your worried about meat damage either buy a 45-70 and shoot cast bullets at 1400 FPS or shoot all your animals in the brain.
i dont eat much rib meat so as long as the bullet causes enough structural damage to the internal organs im good.
i have a 376 steyr that pushes a 235 gr speer SP nearly the speed of a 30-06 and it doesnt damage much meat at all, even w/ a broadside shoulder to shoulder shot. its just not inside long enough to expand into a shroom.


Why would a 270 Roy driving a tough bullet fast do any less/more damage than a .243,.25-06, 7mm Mag, 30-06, 300 WM driving a tough bullet the same velocity?

Your comment about the 376 Steyr I do not understand at all. Please elaborate.

#3557886 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: kyreloader]  
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rost495 Offline
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Least amount of damage I've seen is from my 50 bmg. Clean hole in and out.

TSX and its versions are about the best choice for me.

Worst choice over the years have been too light of a bullet for caliber, IE like 120s for 7 mags and 150s for 300s. Worst bullet by far has been BTs but I've not shot many of the newer tougher ones. Soured too much by early versions. I've seen less damage from BTHP bullets than from BTs.

Speed is an issue too, I have shot a few of the 125 BTs in a 7.62x39 and they don't explode like they would out of a faster round....

Of course stay off bone if possible is the best bet.


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#3558428 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: kyreloader]  
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ringworm Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
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on deer sized game the 235 gr SP is tough and just punches thru w/o the resistance needed to make it expand.


Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.
#3559001 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: ringworm]  
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kyreloader Offline
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You wrote, its just not inside long enough to expand into a shroom, I understand your latest comment much more.

#3559143 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: kyreloader]  
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selmer Offline
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Okay, I hate to bring physics into this, but all of the contributing factors add up to one thing - how much kinetic energy that the bullet is carrying ends up dumped in the animal is THE determining factor on meat loss. Before you object, just consider that a light, fast, cup and core that does not exit expends ALL of its energy in the animal. A heavy-for-caliber premium bullet will generally penetrate through and through, expending enough energy to obviously kill the animal, but much of the remaining energy is expended after the exit wound is made. Same concept with big, "slow" bullets, like hard cast from a .454 or .45-70 or .357 Maximum - they penetrate through and through, impact at a much lower velocity, don't generally break apart, and the remaining energy is expended after complete penetration. I have yet to recover a bullet from any deer I've shot with a .454 Casull and 320 gr. bullets or my .357 Max with 215 gr. bullet, even on long (over 150 yds) shots with either weapon, and I can eat right up to the hole. My .308 on the other hand, when loaded with 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips frequently doesn't exit the deer, and meat damage is often more than I'd like, but that's the trade off for increased ballistic advantage over the slow, heavy cast bullets. How much energy is transferred to the animal is at the core of the meat damage issue, Barnes TSX bullets generally pass through, doing enough to kill well, but not burning all of their energy in the animal. And Ringworm, I'm waving the BS flag on you .270 Wby comment, I hope you were joking. The speed at which a bullet passes through an animal has NOTHING to do with how little or how much damage occurs, I guarantee my pistol cast loads spend MUCH more time in the animal than the .270 Wby bullet, but I know which animal I'd rather butcher.


Selmer

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#3559295 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: selmer]  
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ringworm Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
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by meat i assume you mean the tissue that would normally be prepared and consumed, correct?
I dont figure there is enough rib meat to worry about with any bullet of any caliber at any velocity.
perhaps the answer is easier than all let on. buy a accurate rifle, practice and have the patience to take well placed shots in areas other than the hams and shoulders.
I used to shoot a lot of deer in the neck until someone showed me how to cook a rocking neck roast.

seems to be a big target area behind the shoulder.
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Last edited by ringworm; 12/10/09.

Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.
#3559297 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: WSM_Fan]  
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BrotherBart Offline
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Barrel twist might be a factor as well...
I've seen deer killed with a 264WM with a 1-8 twist and the damage was greater than a 1-10 twist 7Mag... Both were 140gr.TSX bullets...

Last edited by BrotherBart; 12/10/09.

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#3559315 - 12/10/09 Re: Ballistics and meat damage [Re: selmer]  
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Colin_Matchett Offline
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JB had a very good article about "eating right up to hole" and the meat damage or lack there-of based on cartridge, bullet speed, etc. I forget which issue of Rifle it was but it was the usual great common sense, real-life experience stuff from john.


"I am at heart a meat hunter."
John Barsness, The Life of the Hunt
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