Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Another Berger VLD failure !

Toad: The OBVIOUS "failure" you post about (but apparently don't realize!) was striking a Deer in the shoulder!
NEVER aim at a Deer's shoulder - instead shoot said Deer through the heart/lungs and the meat will taste better and the Deer will bleed out.
Again NEVER aim a bullet at a Deers shoulder its wasteful and from time to time said Deer escape!
They NEVER escape (and the bullet NEVER fails!) when the bullet is placed in the proper place - through the heart/lungs!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have blood trailed deer shot with VLDs and just about every other bullet. Many times the intestines will plug the exit hole on gut shots and you won't find much of a blood trail. That is not bad bullets performance, it is poor shot placement. No bullet will make up for poor shot placement nor will going to a more powerful round. Sounds like the bullet did as most would with that placement. You experienced hunter error not bad bullet performance.
Sounds like the Nosler partitions did just what they were designed to do. The front section is designed to expand inside the animal causing a large wound channel, many times pealing off of the more solid rear section which continues with penetration, many times exiting the animal.
There is not a bullet on the market that will make everyone happy with it's performance. If you read enough posts on various sites you will find hunters that swear at or for all the different bullets. Some hunters want an exit hole to help with finding the animal. Others want all the bullet energy expended in the animal, no exit.
Pay your money, take your choice.Rick.

dave,

The big difference between the early Ballistic Tips and VLD's is that VLD's penetrate at least 2" or so before expanding. They never expand right at the entrance hole, or at least I have never seen them do so. Thus two "problems" are solved: they don't expand before they penetrate, and there isn't a big wound right around the entrance hole. Instead it starts inside the animal.

ugadeer,

I simply must comment on your comment about Nosler Partitions. A lot of people assume they haven't expanded because he entrance and exit holes are so similar in size, but if they field-dress the same deer they'll find a lot of interior destruction. This means the bullet expanded.

Did you field-dress these deer? Or did you base your evaluation on whether they expanded by looking at the outside of the deer only?

JWP

Have you ever recovered one? Really curious.


Also if anyone did not e-mail, Berger and request their free (at least it used to be) video is really missing out. Not saying that it will make a believer out of you or a Berger fan but is informative.

BTW John enjoyed your article about New Zealand.

Penetration, retained weight, frontal area, fragmentation, and especially "energy", do not kill. Tissue disruption does. In order for tissue to be destroyed the projectile has to reach vital organs, ie. penetration. However, as long as the projectile penetrates enough to reach the vital organs, the more tissue damage that is done the "faster" the animal dies. Whether you want to believe it or not, when comparing two bullets that both reach the center of the lungs, the one that fragments into tiny pieces will destroy more vital tissue then one the expands but retains 100% of its weight.

Even a laymen could see after shooting enough animals that "fragile" bullets such as the Berger VLD and Hornady AMAX do more damage to tissue then bullets such as Nosler Partitions, and Barnes X's. Those nice picture perfect expanded bullets look good, but have little to nothing to do with rapid incapacitation.

One can read the terminal ballistics work of Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. Gary Roberts, and the IWBA journals for more clarification.


The reason that you don't see the fragmenting bullets used for Cape Buffalo and other large heavy game, is because cartridges and projectiles used are not big enough in comparison to the game for that type of mechanism to work reliably. If one used a 750-800gr Berger (if there was one) out of a 50BMG or a 20mm round that acted the same, you would see very dramatic kills.

Wrong..........those characteristics allow bullets to kill just fine, assuming decent placement, albeit the animal may take a few steps before it succumbs. Mostly not a deal breaker except for those who have trouble reading sign.



Why don't just get a 20mm cannon & load it up with frangible bullets,& call 'em VLD II's?

Then you could hunt buffalo, elephant, hippo, brown bear & such & say you did it with VLD's. (And then give yourself a big whoopy-ding)

Or you could simply use Partitions, A-Frames, TSX, A-Square's, etc, in a 375, 416, 458 etc., & rock on. (With these, you'll just get dead critters & maybe a "Well done" from your PH.)

MM

No, penetration, retained weight, frontal area, fragmentation, and especially "energy", DO NOT kill. They are wounding mechanisms. Mechanisms that can destroy tissue. However tissue disruption is what causes damage to the animal.

I have found a jacket, once

You must be related to Bill Clintoon with that kind of ability to parse words...............

Would you like to be shot with a bullet that delivers those characteristics? Somehow, given decent shot placement, as I stated, I tend to think you'd pass on to the Happy Hunting Ground.

MM

Interesting...

In any case, most people believe that how far a bullet penetrates and how much weight it retains determines how well it kills. It doesn't. How much tissue is destroyed determines how well a certain projectile "kills". More tissue destroyed= faster death, all else being equal. Different projectiles have different characteristics that allow different latitudes in regard to use.

A 180gr 30cal TSX traveling at 3,000fps is a very deep penetrating bullet that will traverse the entire length of a deer nearly every time. It features excellent penetration, with an acceptable wound channel for almost all NA big game, however, it is not optimized for deer sized game if instantaneous death is desired. If viewed from the side it's wound channel looks like a long, though relatively narrow path. It's characteristics allow one to shoot a deer from any angle with the confidence that the bullet will reach vital organs. However, if a deer is gutshot and no other vital organs are hit, tracking and recovery will be tedious as it's wound profile (long and narrow) that helped us in one situation, will hurt us in this one.

On the opposite end of the spectrum a 178gr AMAX at 3,000fps is a violently expanding/fragmenting bullet. In comparison to the TSX it is nearly polar opposite in behavior. It features medium penetration, extreme fragmentation, and very large oval shaped wound channel. It's characteristics are optimized for deer sized game if instantaneous death is desired. On broadside chest shots it will almost always result in an immediate drop because its wound channel is so large that it disrupts the CNS even when it is not directly impacted. Similarly, a gut shot with an AMAX is a completely different event then with a TSX. Because of it's large wound channel, on deer sized game it will in a likelihood still damage the vitals, and even if it doesn't the exit hole is large ensuring a very good, short blood trail.

The trade off with any bullet involves how mush tissue is destroyed and the length of the wound channel.


Both types work, and both are effective but in different ways. The AMAX (or Berger VLD) is not the bullet I would choose for Elk size game if I wanted to be able to shoot in all situations, and the TSX is not the bullet I would choose for deer (caliber depending) if I wanted to be able to shoot in all situations.

Hmmmmmmmmm....I agree with most of what you said, but there aren't many things that you can fire from the shoulder that ensure a short blood trail with a gut shot, I don't care what bullet you use.

Can't argue with most of that treatise & agree with most of it.

Retained weight is certainly not an indicator of ability to kill as you point out & as many erroneously believe.

But on the other hand, I can't subscribe to the overly explosive A-max bullet group either except for relatively small sized animals..........too much room for error.

Guess that's why, for the most part, I've always been fond of Partitions but have also been using TSX's in light for caliber loadings with good results.

Was just raggin' on you a bit earlier.........not to be taken too seriously.

MM

I shot my first Berger deer this year with a 155gr VLD from a .308 with a chronographed velocity of 2800 fps. Distance was 40 yards. Shot entered behind the shoulder on right side and exited through the shoulder on left side. Little entrance hole and huge exit hole. Upon butchering I noticed the bullet fragmented on the off shoulder, it was an instant death. From this experience it appears to have done exactly what Berger says. I could really care less what the bullet looks like after a humane kill. The only reason I used a Berger this year was to try something different. My one shot kills with Sierra's were getting boring, thought I would try something different and the result was the same. I wouldn't hesitate to use Berger bullets again.

Whew!!!! I finally caught up with reading this whole thread. I get a kick out of the defensiveness of some of them. Kind of reminds of the opposite end of the bullet spectrum and the guys who bleed Barnes bullets. Heck just use whatever bullets tickle your fancy and be sure to put it in the right place. I've been using .224's on deer the past 4-5years so I've been leaning more toward the Premium bullets side of things. I did shoot a buck last year with the 243AI/105 Berger VLD just to see for myself. It worked just like it was supposed too and this year I ran a bonded bullet, the SSII, and it worked too. Next year it's back to the TTSX's for me.

Well I took my last buck with a 30-06 150BT this year about 70 yds maybe less. Classic jacket core seperation. My shot was high lung due to the buck's right front leg being rearward in his step. Entered the right side, nice broadside profile, taking out the top of the lungs and ricocheted off the spine and exited the body. Was that a bullet failure due to the jacket core seperation? Not in my book, shooter error with the good Lord taking up the slack for me. The big man above knew I wanted to eat some deer heart this year, and it was gooooooood!

Agreed.

In a case of this nature Formidilosus.
More velocity is your friend.
dave

No offense, but you would be wrong. I assure you that if you launch a 178gr AMAX at above 2,800fps or so into a deer sized mammal and hit anything other then just lungs, you will see the meaning of destruction. Similarly a 190 or 220gr SMK will leave massive exit wounds. There are tradeoffs though. In order to get wide latitude in messed up shots, you lose a lot of meat if you hit bone.

MontanaMan,

Indeed. I prefer AMAX's and SMK's when hunting deer, as some of my shots can be longish and the large exit wounds do allow more room for error. When I go bigger then deer, bullet selection changes.





Absolutely. However at some point that velocity is still going to drop and you will have a relatively narrow wound channel.