Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Black Mamba Question.

Hi Shakiri

I assumed that few here have access to a research library, so I posted the only publicly-available pdf reprint I could find with a quick search.

Bon't bother with a normal Google search -- you will find mostly bullshit anecdotal reports and few, if any, proper studies. The www is full of crap that is not supported scientifically.

If you use a proper scholarly search engine like Web of Knowledge you will find many. If you use Google Scholar you will find at least some creditable articles. Unfortunately many of the articles you find will not be available to you (unless you are going through a university library with electronic subscriptions to these journals -- as I do as a university prof).

So, be prepared for some frustration unless you can access these articles through a research library! Here they are:

Title: ELECTRIC SHOCKS ARE INEFFECTIVE IN TREATMENT OF LETHAL EFFECTS OF RATTLESNAKE ENVENOMATION IN MICE
Author(s): JOHNSON EK, KARDONG KV, MACKESSY SP
Source: TOXICON Volume: 25 Issue: 12 Pages: 1347-1349 Published: 1987

Title: STUN-GUNS AND SNAKEBITES
Author(s): MCPARTLAND JM, FOSTER R
Source: LANCET Volume: 2 Issue: 8620 Pages: 1141-1141 Published: NOV 12 1988

Welch EB, Gales BJ Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review WILDERNESS & ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE 12 2 111-117 SUM 2001

Holstege CP, Miller MB, Wermuth M, et al. Crotalid snake envenomation CRITICAL CARE CLINICS 13 4 889-& OCT 1997

Title: ELECTROTHERAPY FOR SNAKEBITE
Author(s): BLAYLOCK RS
Source: SOUTH AFRICAN MEDICAL JOURNAL Volume: 84 Issue: 12 Pages: 875-875 Published: DEC 1994

Title: ELECTRIC-SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE
Author(s): SNYDER CC, MURDOCK RT, WHITE GL, et al.
Source: LANCET Volume: 1 Issue: 8645 Pages: 1022-1022 Published: MAY 6 1989

Title: ELECTRIC SHOCKS ARE INEFFECTIVE IN TREATMENT OF LETHAL EFFECTS OF RATTLESNAKE ENVENOMATION IN MICE
Author(s): JOHNSON EK, KARDONG KV, MACKESSY SP
Source: TOXICON Volume: 25 Issue: 12 Pages: 1347-1349 Published: 1987


Here is the best one: a review, and I have included the Abstract:

Title: Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review
Author(s): Welch EB, Gales BJSource: WILDERNESS & ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE Volume: 12 Issue: 2 Pages: 111-117 Published: SUM 2001
Abstract: During the past 2 decades, articles suggesting that stun guns be utilized to treat venomous bites and stings have appeared in both the lay and medical press. Although never widely considered to be standard therapy for venomous bites and stings, stun guns are still considered to be a treatment option by some medical practitioners and outdoor enthusiasts. A Medline search was performed using these terms: venomous bites, venomous stings, snake bites, spider bites, electrical, stun gun, high voltage electricity, low amperage electricity, direct current, and shock therapy. Articles selected included laboratory-based isolated venom studies, animal studies, and case reports involving humans in which a stun gun or some other source of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks were used to treat actual or simulated venomous bites or stings. We concluded that the use of stun guns or other sources of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks to treat venomous bites and stings is not supported by the literature.

John

Hatari...thanks for this tidbit, and thanks to jpb for reference as well...I kinda wondered why we haven't heard anything on this topic for the last ten years...

Also, its always a good thing to put anectdotal evidence and heresay to rest...

Learn something new every day.....

Ingwe

I understand that the currently-accepted state of the art treatment for snakebite (pioneered by researchers in Minnesota!) is to shave your junk and eat a can of frozen orange juice.

John

How do your keep the Orange juice frozen in your first aid/snakebite kit???



Ingwe

Must confess I'd never heard of web of knowledge until now, but it certainly looks like it'll be useful in the future! - Thanks for the tip..

I'll try to track some of those papers down now!

FWIW I like the Google Scholar option too...when I'm trying to run down something obscure...
Lots of articles on there you have to pay for...lots you don't...
Ingwe

i will tell the veterinarian to stop using electric shock on bitten animals, because the web says it doesn't work.

If the vet says it works then maybe there's a difference between simulation in a laboratory and the real thing in an animal or a human....... I've got a couple of buddies who a vets and the ask them if they have had any experience with it.

I've gotta say, I'd be more inclined to believe (first hand) prectical experience rather than laboratory tests.

Dan,

do you know if he uses an ordinary stun gun or something special?

i still say: mamba bite, more than 2 hours from treatment, hand my arse the jumper cables

And/or the Orange Juice!

Ingwe

so for now, 'current' thinking is in the event of a snake bite, to pass the stun gun and/or HT leads and hope to get 'ohm' safely.

Shakari. he uses an ordinary cattle prod. he first explained the whole procedure to me, about 3 or 4 years ago. his practice is about 2 kilometers from my home and he is a customer of mine.

in short he said the following. he first puts the dog to sleep and then he would prod the dog on the bite mark a few times and then he would prod between the mark and halfway towards the heart of the dog and if possible on the aorta. he would repeat this a couple of times and then let the dog sleep it of.

i am sure there is more to it than what i just said but that is in short how i remember it. i will add this: i recently asked him if he still uses this method and it was then when he told me that if he was out on his farm and something like cobra(is that the english for a yellow snake?) bit him he will do some self prodding. i took that remark as a sign of his believe in the electrical method.

i know him well and i am sure that if someone needs to learn more i can ask him again about the detail.he wont mind.

he likes to discuss these kinds of things he used to be a toxicology researcher at the university of Pretoria specifically at Onderstepoort.

Sigh. You have read those papers already, I guess? It is not that simple. I made one comment on one review paper -- I should have known not to do so or it would be taken out of context by somebody who will not bother to do much work for themselves. You are as bad as some of my students!

"the web" says damn near anything you want it to say. This is why one should rely on scientific articles, not the crap dredged up in simple Google search.

Similarly, you can find all sorts of quack cures for cancer on the web, but if you know what you are doing you can also find proper scientific reports of treatments that actually work too.

Added note: there is, in fact, some evidence for the use of dc current for some types of venom -- which is why I posted more than one reference (my comment was regarding only the last paper). It ain't that simple...

John

John my apologies, i red the topics and it seemed to suggest no support for the electrical practice.

Hi Lt_Dan

Interesting that he did toxicology research! Unusual for a vet.

Snakes are not my field, but I wonder if some of the mixed conclusions among various reports may be for bites with cytotoxic vs hemotoxic venom... or if perhaps whether electicity works is right down at the level of the specific species' venom.

John

WOW, I learned alot. Thanks everybody!

jpb, Ondertepoort is the local(sa) training ground for vets. it is also a world famous and it is often in the local news with regards to some or the other ground braking stuff. remember a couple of years ago the foot and mouth disease in the uk? the uk flew a lot of local vets and local produced medicines to the uk in the end to help stop the epidemic.

now if i am not mistaken his field of expertise was towards toxin in animals. he was also used by the university to recommend treatments. meaning he used to be contacted by vets from over the country for his opinion. i have been in his presence, recently when he was again phoned by another vet for advice.

this was all before he started his private practice. he is also a cattle farmer and i do his vermin hunting.

a while back when i still played rugby for our local town he used to be our unofficial team doctor. some of his treatments was "interesting" to say the least, but it sure worked.

Sounds like it'll work at least some of the time and is probably well worth a try if there's no other option available.

Dan,

Not sure what you mean by yellow snake.... do you mean m'fezi? - ''Fraid I don't know the Afrikaans name for them but they tend to come in a variety of colours and I have seen them with some yellow on then but not a hell of a lot.

BTW, where in SA are you? - I'm in White River just down the road from the KNP.

I have heard, seen in film, but never seen in person a type of Yellow Cobra in southern Africa...rumored to also hunt Weaver birds nests and the like...
Anything like that???


Ingwe

[/quote]
Hi Lt Dan

There is sure no need to apologize! Now that I read it, my reply seems much harsher than I indended. I was rushing.

As I noted above, I also find it interesting that your vet has a toxicology background. He may well know of some good scientific studies supporting the use of electricity at least on some kinds of venom. This is an area a long way from my area of expertise (I was just trying to help with access to proper studies with my post, not to suggest that I knew anything about snake venom!).

Cheers from Sweden,

John