Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Wolves Entrenched

This is a typical PETA response when they are confronted with some opposing view points.

Perhaps land owners should be allowed to kill off all the elk and deer eating their grass intended for sheep. Why just preditors?

Roundoak, I try to stay out of wolf arguments, but if you've read the Sand County Almanac, especially the chapter "Thinking Like a Mountain" when Leopold killed what he believed to be the last wolf in the Gilas (or was it Arizona, can't remember off the top of my head), his argument for wolves to remain on the landscape had everything to do with balance and ecosystem management. During the 1930s, some of the worst big game die offs in history occurred precisely because they had completely outstripped their resources after the removal of most of the major predators.
Anyway, just trying to point you to where Leopold's exact words on the subject came from. Not making an argument for or against anything.

For a second there I thought a few of us were actually going to have a civilized conversation for once.

Buzz, being halfway polite this time jumped to conclusions again.

The Sand County Almanac seems to be the bible for so many pro wolfers. I fail to understand why. I read that thing a few times in college. I never did agree with much of anything he had to say. People act like that book is the final word in game managment. This in not directed towards you exbiologist. I was in a conversation with my yuppie (but absolutely great) Ecology TA about a year ago and he kept referencing this book. I showed him pictures of my riding horse's scars (I am sure you can guess what from) and he finally admitted he sees light at both ends of this controversy.

By the way, I had little sucess on my traps this morning. I mainly have coon sets out, but only snared a single non target fox. This is a pretty poor year all around. Oh well, it is still fun.

A lot more than half....................

I'm not claiming he's the be all end all of anything, just stating where you can read his thoughts on how he changed his mind on predator management

Exbiologist, I am slow to anger, but this Brentd fellow finally pushed me over the edge with his hoity toity position on many topics in the fire. He always portrays himself as the enlightened one and rest of us are dumb as a post. When someone offers an opposing view or flushes him out he behaves in a predictable manner...start mudslinging.

Aldo Leopold was required reading in my college studies and in my youth was influenced by his works. Later, I realized he was not the last word in wildlife management. Sure, the man has some valid views but as much as Leopold would have liked, you cannot suspend human activities and re-set the world condition to a pre-determined time. Rather, I subscribe to the survival of the fittest condition which effectively places mankind as the ultimate predator. Not only is this biblical it is reality.

You are correct there were some wildlife die offs in the past due to removing predators, however this was a temporary condition at a time when there were not hunters on the landscape in the numbers we see today. One can make the arguement that there are wildlife populations in certain areas of the US today that have maxed out their habitat ability to sustain them. My answer to that is if the Federal and State regulators would get out of the way hunters could solve that.

In my state of Wisconsin, wildlife managers have micromanaged the whitetail deer for profit...not for deer - habitat ratios.

Leopold may have watched "a fierce green fire dying in her eyes" and lamented later, but he was the ultimate predator in the drama of survival of the fittest.

Thank you and best regards...you are welcome at my fire anytime, but I reserve the right to refuse Mr. Brentd

I feel sorry for you guys in Mt. I"m planning on moving out there in the near future and hope to harvest and elk someday. Plus, I wouldn't mind a Mule deer and antelope. I've never harvested any of those three.

We once had Mt. Lions here in Pa. and I was telling some wolf lover at work about an article I recently read in Predator Xtreme about all the hell the wolves are creating in Mt. They both said they were nice to see and thats one of the things they wanted to see at Yellowstone when they vacationed there. I then asked them if they would enjoy in having the Mt. Lion reintroduced here in Pa. I could see the light bulb go off, and the answer was no.

Dog Hunter, does your state pay for wolf predation?

Here in Wisconsin the state and Feds are protecting the wolf and pay livestock owners and dog owners for loss due to wolves. A relative in Northwestern Wisconsin had a colt maimed by wolves and had to be put down. Got a check from the gov't and he has figured that financially he would be better off to raise horses for the wolves because the overall horse market is depressed.

As a side note...fur prices in this area are really depressed and trappers in my neighborhood seem to be trapping just for the excersise and skill maintenance. An amigo and I dropped some coyotes at the local fur buyer last Monday and averaged $11.00 each

oak,
Leopold was never ever the last word on game management. He was the first word. The Sand County Almanac was not a scientific treatise of game management but a philosophical perspective on it. The primary literature is full of the actual science, but I know you don't want to go there. Meanwhile, the field has moved on a good long ways, and it is well demonstrated that wolves can have a real and positive effect on the environment. You only need to look as far as the recruitment rates of hemlock in your state to get an idea of how far out of bounds whitetail deer have become.

What you and many others at the fire don't like is someone that fails to walk in lock step with the prevailing attitudes here. I don't mind doing that where I feel it is valid and where I know something about the topic. This is one of those issues. I don't suppose you are going to change your mind. You are rather locked into narrow group think. But there are others here that can think outside of that little box, though they do not speak often since they are only going to be berated by the loudest members here.

This is not a place for independent thinking but I like to reprove that fact every so often. Just to see if anything has changed.

Brent, you need to step back and take a deep breath. You have contributed to this site for sometime now and it should be apparent this is not a knitting society website. This is a huge sandbox and there are individuals that do not play well with others, yet you continue to participate. Sure, there are bullies and loud people posting here, but I dismiss them as less than 10% of the population and look forward to communicate with and learn from the other 90%.

You have pegged me wrong as I do respect philosophical perspectives if it can be verified by accurate science. In the instance of wolf studies, I have seen much dissertation that is weighted to a predetermined outcome. I think one could call it junk science, maybe that is too harsh. I learned long ago that one can not hang their hat on the philosophical musings of Leopold. He could not grasp the fundlamental law of survival of the fittest and pined for a natural world that he never experienced and existed only pre-historcally in North America.

Regarding deer impact on regeneration of flora in Wisconsin and elsewhere... it does concern me. I see it in my woodlot up close and personal. I do not have a fool proof solution, but it would help if the Federal and State wildlife agencies would get out of the way and let the ultimate predator, the hunter, become more involved. But that will probably not happen because those agencies manage big game as a natural resource...right it is a resource...a source of revenue to further their expermintation.

I started forming my opinions on the wolf's role in todays world in the early 1960s while doing deer pellet counts in northern Wisconsin. At the time there was a remnant wolf population and the occasional emigrant from Minnesota or Michigan. One January morning our work crew snowshoed into a known deer yard just south of the Bad Indian Reservation and experienced a rare encounter with an adult and yearling wolf eating on a live button buck. We chased the two off and dispatched the deer with an axe. Two weeks later another crew reported wolf carnage in a deer yard on the Totagatic River. Our crew had to see this for ourselves and we snowshoed in the next day. 11 deer carcasses and one set of wolf tracks.

It has been stated here in this thread that Leopold changed his negative outlook on the wolf upon watching the fierce green fire die in a female wolf. He wrote later that the wolf and other predators need to be protected.

In my case my outlook on the wolf changed from favorable to un-favorable. That view has been sustained today with the current circumstances of promoting the wolf in todays world. Simply...we can not re-create a landscape where the wolf was a dominant predator. All the reasons are obvious.

I think George William Featherstonhaugh summed it up best: "The scythe of what is called "civilation" is in motion, and everything will fall before it."

No. Leopold wasn't called the father of game management for nothing--he was the one who advocated scientific process in the management of wildlife. And it didn't take long for the scientific approach to demonstrate a lot of the prevailing ideas were wrong. And because Leopold subscribed to that approach, and seeing what was happening on the ground by the 1930's, he realized some of his earlier ideas didn't jibe.

Leopold wrote at length about some of his earlier beliefs and how they didn't work out.

More so, most "salt of the earth" folks don't like ANYTHING competing with livestock or farming--that would include any species of wildlife that creates conflicts. Despite all the press wolves recieve, deer and elk still do more crop and forage damage in dollar terms than wolves, by a long shot.

As an added note, the uncle of a childhood friend of mine was the first person to go to federal prison under the Endangered Species Act--as a sheep rancher he got caught shotgunning eagles from a helo in the early 70's outside of Craig, Colorado.


Casey

They do pay here, assuming the kill was PID as a wolf kill. Problem is the investigaters don't always get there in time and the site is cleaned up by scavangers. I know of 2 hgound dogs in the last week killed: I am not sure if hunting dogs are considered "livestock". Ranchers in the big hole are loosing calves nearly daily, but its just buisness as usual to them anymore. I have no idea what kind of cash their getting or dead livestock, but the loss of productivity due to being run around so much is still unpaid. I was talking to a rancher at the range today and he has feds flying over his spread taking a few out. At least their doing SOMETHING.

As a side note to your sidenote, I only trap bobcats for profit. The quota is full now, so I just trap other animals for fun and to get rid of critters near houses. I don't even waste my time skinning coyotes/fox/coons anymore. I give some to the Bio dept at the U of M, the others get thrown in the bushes. (Please nobody start arguing about the ethics of "wasting" predators and unprotected wildlife)

Despite Hunts, Wolf Population Holds Steady in Northern Rockies
http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...d516e7a-0c77-11df-ad87-001cc4c002e0.html
We killed over 500 wolves in 2009 and ended with the same number of wolves. Interesting!
_______________________________________________________________
Big Game Animals Scarce in Hunt District 310 along Gallatin River
http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...68faeb8-e06b-11de-a34e-001cc4c002e0.html
Elk numbers drop from 1500 in 2005 to 200 this year. FWP saw a dramatic drop in Elk numbers when wolves arrived in the region.


Another benefit to the wolf Introduction
A study published in the October issue of the Journal of Wildlife Diseases documented the first instances of the tapeworm Echinococcus granulosus in Montana and Idaho wolves. The study found that more than 60 percent of the 60 wolves tested from Montana and 63 Idaho wolves had the worms.

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/article_dc285eb4-fb34-11de-9b39-001cc4c03286.html

Back in the day I can't tell you how many owls, eagles and hawks we killed on the farm in order for our chickens to "free range" This before everyone realized the birds of prey were disapearing...still I wonder how chickens free range these days.

If any of you would like to introduce wolves, mountain lions or grizzly bears into our state capitol in Sacramento while the legislature is in session; I would be more than happy to watch the ensuing excitement on pay per view.

I have the excerpt that others have mentioned here, if anyone's interested. Lets let Aldo tell about the why of his mind change with this excerpt from his writing:

"We were eating lunch on a high rimrock, at the foot of which a turbulent river elbowed its way. We saw what we thought was a doe fording the torrent, her breast awash in white water. When she climbed the bank toward us and shook out her tail, we realized our error: it was a wolf. A half-dozen others, evidently grown pups, sprang from the willows and all joined in a welcoming melee of wagging tails and playful maulings. What was literally a pile of wolves writhed and tumbled in the center of an open flat at the foot of our rimrock.

In those days we had never heard of passing up a chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy; how to aim a steep downhill shot is always confusing. When our rifles were empty, the old wolf was down, and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable side-rocks.

We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes�something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.

* * *

Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers."

DPole - After seeing the destruction from wolves and game populations decreasing, I am unmoved. We need to allow hunting of wolves just as we do coyotes. They are a predator not a game animal.

If we as hunters have an unified voice, hopefully we can continue to limit and decrease their populations.

ddj

I think most of us support wolf management. SSS doesn't qualify.

When it is the ONLY option, it will be used. Until there are options, it is what it is. Doing nothing is not an option.