Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Shotgun slugs vs bears

Lots of good discussion here and I'm glad to see it staying civil.
I should perhaps have mentioned a few other things. Someone suggested a Marlin Co-pilot and believe me I'd love to have that gun! But, this shotgun can be had for around $300, and honestly I can't really afford to spend more than that. It's either the shotgun or an existing rifle. The only one I'd feel equally comfortable with is the .444, and its not one I want to drag through the bush and mountains.
I have a line on some heavy hardcast bullets to load in my .356,375 and .444. These are waht I'll be using to measure penetration and damage against.
I will continue to try toi find a way to get my hands on some Dixie slugs,as these are true hard-cast slugs designed purely for penetration. Going to also look into the Hevi-Shot slugs,as I was not aware they existed.
Again, this gun is purely for self defense,so shots MUST be very close if I want to avoid finding myself in front of a judge! They take that sort of thing seriously here, so I'd better be able to justify the shooting. Also,the ability to slide the gun into a pack completley out of sight when around "civilized" persons is important, and even my 20" barrel levergun won't do that.
I appreciate all the idea's and opinions given here,and will use them to try to do the best I can with what's available to me.
If anyone knows how to get the Dixie's to canada, let me know.

FWIW I keep two guns at camp as permanent fixtures. One is an 870, the other a 45 Colt levergun. I like my 870 for its reliability and speed. It gets shot quite a bit. Most often there are one or two shot loads or Fosters at the front of the line. They work well for "training" purposes and create the desired disturbance near enough to reinforce the message. Mostly that works well enough. As long as one doesn't get caught up in a "gosh, that's a huge hole in the barrel" syndrome, it can be a fine tool. (That may be a danger of the internet; there are always going to be some who think a 600 Nitro is warranted, while others think that they can reason their way out of a situation or surely blast their way out of trouble with a decent bullet in just about anything.) I'm not crazy about such a shorty shoulder weapon, but I understand your need for that sort of thing.

I like to know a couple of things; one, that the weapon is utterly reliable in my hands so I have complete confidence in its functioning. Second, that my ammo is absolutely as reliable as possible. I try, when I can, to shoot only 2 3/4" ammo in the 870 action for defense. The port is the same for both the shorter and the 3" shells. It is the ejector which differs between the field and the magnum actions. Three-inchers can sometimes hang up a bit. As long as you know that you need to do your part well, even a less than "the best" weapon can be useful.

The same is true for rifle ammunition. And handgun ammunition; I know and have heard from too many folks that are unduly impressed that they are carrying "hot loaded hollow points", and won't listen to anything.



I think that's why a guy that used to post here quite a bit used to say something like, placement, boolit, cartridge.

I don't know what a Bear charge looks like at 10yds but at 15 feet his mane hairs are up, his ears will will be laid back flat'er than a ducks in step his lips will be curled back and he'll sound like a big Ole Boar Hog. Throwing a strike there will be just like bowling,you got to hit'em to get'em.You can't talk'em down.

If I had my druthers,I'd druther have a large cal. rifle.

Hell, if I was EVER confronted by a bear on the trail or saw a cub cross my pathway ..... I just hope its more than just two seconds away!

100 yards in front and a couple minutes away would be a huge luxury in either of those scenarios!

Why, with the right caliber and the right bullet "pistolass" are very effective

Were those charge or hunting situations?

That'd be the difference, IMO.

We get quite a few griz in Island Park, especially during the archery elk hunt. I think a lot of them come from yellostone to feed on gut piles. My Dr. alone stitched up two people who were mauled last year and my hunting partner was charged but it broke off when his brother ran towards him cause he had the pepper spray. My friend still shakes when he tells the story and said the bear closed the 150 yards between them in seconds.

Having seen a few griz closer than I wanted to I used to carry my m77 MkII in 350 rem with 250g partitions and a 1-3 power scope. Friends always teased me because they carried mighty 12 gauges with the cheapest hollow point slugs they could find and all I had was my little rifle. I never bothered to argue with them I just kept bringing the rifle.

My current huckleberry picking gun is a 338 rcm with 225g interbonds and a 2-8 VXIII. Although I'm considering dragging my rossi 92 in 480 ruger out and loading it with 420g hard casts. I also carry a smith mountain gun 44 mag loaded with 310g hard casts clocking 1200 fps but even with it I prefer to just stay out of troubles way.

Bb

The one on the left of the picture came in on us while working the Moose kill also on the left of the picture. My rifle was leaned up against a tree. A 475 Linebaugh is a very effective tool

What bullet were you running in the linebaugh? I have a bfr 475 but I don't pack it much because it has a 7.5" barrel and my mountain gun just carries and handles better. I do have hundreds of 400 g gold dots in 475 and I've loaded them up to almost 1400 out of the bfr. I also have a 400 g Lee mold I plan to play with soon too. Maybe I could get the bfr docked to 4" barrel and make a carry gun out of it.

Bb

I was useing a hard cast bullet (cast from wheel weights and water quenched) cast from an LBT LFN mold that weighed 390 grains at about 1350 FPS

Chuck Hawks view on the subject:

"...Unfortunately, the SD of a 12 gauge rifled slug is only .117 so, compared to almost any big game rifle bullet, potential penetration is poor--but not as bad as buckshot. If you must carry a shotgun for protection in the field, stuff it full of slug loads.

The bottom line is that a shotgun is highly over rated as a "stopper" on dangerous game. Almost any big game rifle is more effective. A .308 rifle shooting a standard 180 grain factory load at a MV of 2620 fps develops 2743 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy and its bullet has a sectional density of .270! Something to ponder before choosing a shotgun for protection in the field."

Bool-schiitt!

"Chuck Hawks ..... ?"

Hawks has written a few interesting things from time to time, but NOTHING in your post 'Windage, is germane to the discussion of STOPPING a bear attack - where shots fired would be measured in feet!

Now if this thread was about hunting black bears at "long range" with shotgun slugs, maybe Hawks would've written something pertinent.

BTW, I once helped carry out a black bear I spooked to a hunter who killed it with two shots of #1Buck from a Sweet Sixteen A5 Browning. Used within its design limits buckshot is highly effective.

In addition, Burley Boy impressed me with his choices of bear [protection] guns, given what sounds like a limited budget. The .350 Rem Mag is roughly equal to the .35 Whelen in power, given that the two rounds are both .358 bore and hold similarly equal amounts of powder. Still, a 250grn Partition at 2450-2550fps fired at a bruin or grizz is going to make that "Mr Claws," - sick, rapidly!

Also several of the Buffalo Bore .44M loads he's obviously aquainted himself with generate over 1100 foot-pounds of ME, and one Buffalo Bore .44Mag load (280-285grains I believe) generates over 1200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. The Buffalo Bore .45Colt+P loads are not wimpy, either.

Thanks for the laugh. I wondered how long it would take someone to go nuts on Mr. Hawks' observations (not mine, so don't confuse the two... and don't forget to take those blood pressure pills).

In general, though, I side with those who vote in favor of big-bore carbines for bear protection. Why? Why not? Why not stack the odds in your favor to the maximum degree possible?

And buckshot? I don't think so... A black bear is one thing. A big brownie is quite another.

A shotgun is better than nothing. But not my choice, pure lead is too soft. I would rather use my 308Winch with 200 (maybe 220) grains bonded or copper bullets as a defense gun.

At three steps and the lenght of a 870, a .44Mag 240 gr. Speer jack'ed Semi Wadcutter "will" enter the neck cut spine and lodge against the skin on the far side.I often wonder what a load of number 4s would have done.

Short-barreled, manually-operated shotguns (non-semi-automatics) are non-restricted as long as the barrel remains unmodified from the original factory length. There is no legal minimum for shotgun barrels as long as the overall length exceeds 26" and so shotguns with barrels as short as 6.5 inches are available in Canada. If a shotgun with an 18-inch or greater barrel is reduced to below 18 inches by sawing, cutting, or replacing the barrel (by anyone other than a recognized gun manufacturer), that shotgun becomes prohibited.[4]

I was once a proponent of "big hole, big lead, must be fine" however this season I witnessed someone shoot a very nice Rem Copper Solid 12 ga and hit a small buck quartering toward, follow the shoulder (blade?), wreck havoc, only to be deflected off and exit several inches later. A mess of a shoulder, for sure, but not crushing a 110lb whitetail means exactly WHAT in comparison to a big bear!?

I have had this same slug sail through every other deer I have shot, broadside, quartering, from 5 to 135 yards. Even hit a BAD shot once, right through a big doe's hips at about 135 yards, and 1 second later through the front shoulders (better hit!).

So, it looked GREAT, and then on that weird shoulder angle, not so great.

Man, stuff happens sometimes I guess. It'd really stink for it to "happen" with a bear trying to cozy up to my tenders.

Don't confuse oridnary slugs with the very heavy hard cast slugs from Dixie Slugs, there is no comparison.

Dixie's biggest customer is the US Coast Guard, because the Dixie is the only slug that will penetrate the bulk head doors on the ships they sometimes have to board

The penetration and the wound channel is vastly larger, longer than conventional slugs which re designed primarily for use on White Tail Deer.

Yep! No big deal at all.

Canada has shotgun regulations which make much more sense than the US. Canucks can buy these short barrelled guns conveniently and quite cheaply. Eat your heart out!

I used to use a shotgun like the one below when I was in Canada.



In fact, here Canucks can buy all sorts of 12 or 13 inch barrelled shotguns.

Unfortunately, Canada balances out a sane short rifle/shotgun policy with insane handgun regulations.

John