Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 375 WSM; 375 WSSM

Hi All,

I've lurked on this site for about a year now and finally registered not long ago. Learned a lot from you guys!

I just read the article in the reloading section of the Campfire and ran across the part that says:


"One thing I've found through the use of the machine is the fatter the bullet, the less difference small manufacturing variations make. It's a lot easier, for instance, to make a concentric .30 caliber bullet than a balanced .25 caliber bullet, one of the reasons many .30 caliber cartridges have a reputation for accuracy. But the most consistently concentric bullets are those of .35 caliber and up. In fact, I rarely test any bullets of .35 caliber or more that don't check out essentially match-grade. Which is why so many .375's and .416's shoot little tiny groups--if their owners can take the recoil."

Very good reading if you haven't read it yet.


Based on this info, I was wondering about the prospects of building a 375 rifle with recoil levels in the 30-06 to 300 Winchester Mag range.

I've used my RCBS.Load cartridge designer to get some aproximate case capacities and designs and the WSSM case seems to have the same capacity as a 308. I would assume the velocities in a 375 WSSM wildcat would be comparable to the 358 winchester since it is mainly a 308 necked up to 35 caliber. This would make a 375 cal with velocities in the 2000 to 2200 fps range I think. The recoil should be around that of a 30-06 with 220 grain full bore loads. Possibly recoiling as much as a 300 Winchester Mag. Of coarse the 375 WSM would be more both in velocity and recoil.

I do most of my hunting and target shooting using a 7mm Remington Mag and have never shot one of the big bores. I can shoot the 7 a long time (60 or more rounds) before feeling the effects of recoil from it. Do you think this would be an accurate guess as to what to expect from such a wildcat? Has it been done yet?

Thanks in advance guys!

Jim

I've actually looked at both the 35WSM and the 35WSSM, on the computer, and they look fine. As far as shootability, I much rather shoot either my 358 or my 35Whelen than my 7mag.

The WSSM case capacity is between the 358 and the 35 Whelen, so it should be eminently shootable. In 375 diameter, it should be darn near equivalent to the 376Steyer or the 9.something Mauser. JMO, Dutch.

CyberVirus,

I shoot a .376 Steyr in their ProHunter model, and I have been impressed with the lower recoil of this cartridge compared to my .375 H&H rifles. You ought to take a look at it.

There have been WSM-like wildcats that preceeded the WSM cartridges, and they went up to .458". Jim Busha designed two lines of such on cases of slightly different length.

His .375 Heavy Express Short-Action Magnum would do 2,600 fps with a 300 grain bullet; his .375 Heavy Express Magnum would do over 2,800 fps also with the 300 grain bullet.

jim

A member here, Ross leggett, recently built a 375 Taylor and posted info on this site, try a search. It is based on the 338 Win Mag.Rick.

Cyber, I've let several people at the range try out my 375 H&H's. Almost all of them have commented that it wasn't as bad as they thought. Only 1 has asked to shoot another round of my 416. None has shot my 458 Lott more than once (of the few that would even try).
I would think that if you are shooting 60rds of 7mag you probably could move up to the 375 H&H without too much problem. I would start by shooting a couple rounds offhand and if you don't mind that too much proceed to the bench or other positions from there.
A 375 short mag might be an interesting round, but the other 375's available IMO vary from Very Good to Greatness, you ought to shoot one. If you are going to be near Oklahoma City anytime soon PM me and maybe you can meet me at a range and try one of mine..........DJ

Howdy Cybervirus,

I put together a 375 taylor recently, which is the 338 win mag case necked up to 375. Really wanted a 375-284 but already had the standard length action which was a 7 mag. The gunsmith I use had a 375 H and H reamer and a 338 win mag reamer. By careful use of both we made the 375 taylor.

I used it in SC with Rick Smith just a few weeks ago. Thanks Rick! It was downloaded with the 235 speer going a mere 2400 fps. It hammered two deer with little damaged meat.

The other loading is with a 260 nos BT with much more punch. It is going 2650 or so. (discovered that velocities of 2800 with this 8 lb rifle to be over my threshold of recoil) Will be used on elk this dec.

Just as you think you want a 375, so did I. I wanted the giant holes for blood trailing them in SC. Didn't know a thing about better bullets. This particular sized case lends itself well to downloading as well as duplicating the 375 H and H in a standard length case.

Always fun to put together a wildcat to fit your needs.

Ross

CyberVirus:

It seems that your questions pose more than one requirement for a response:

Wildcats:

First off building a "wildcat" is an ego trip more than an accomplishment. With more than 6,000 calibers to chose from there isn't very much that is left to invent - " not even the wheel". Exotic wildcats can become expensive. Odd ball dies, no ammo availability.

Recoil:

Shooting heavy recoil rifles is a matter of two considerations:

1. Benchrest. They beat you up. They hurt your shoulder. They hurt your fingers. Take all precautions. Use a Bull Bag under the forearm. It grips the forearm. Stack a bag of lead shot between you and the butt. Strap on a Past shield.

2. In the field. Forget recoil. When shooting game you DO NOT FEEL IT AT ALL.

Accuracy:

Accuracy is not a function of caliber. It is a very extensive subject that requires a monumental amount of explanation to cover completely. Suffice it to say that a .45 caliber rifle will shoot groups consistently that are MOA ( Minute of Angle ) at 500 - 600 yards.

Physics and Ballistics:

There are more than 120 different single base and double base powders. There are uncountable different bullets available. When the rifle is fired a physical event takes place ( internal ballistics ). It is predictable and calculable . A given amount of powder will produce a predictable amount of recoil.

In the case of a .375 H&H Magnum for bench rest shooting the load can be reduced. For field game shooting the load can be "souped up". Different powders have different speeds of burning and give different performance. The use of a good ballistics software program will very quickly establish all of the necessary parmeters.

It should be understood that there are no shortcuts. A .375 that performs has to be loaded to perform. Recoil is a consequence. A .375 that shoot's with the recoil of a .30-06 will perform like a .30-06.

A .375 H&H Magnun should shoot 2400 fps to be up to expectations. It isn't necessary to shoot faster on any North American big game nor most African dangerous game.

Bill Tibbe

Cyber, all ego trips aside. I built a 375/350 Rem Mag several years ago(before the 376 styer). It is on a 98 Mauser and is throated to take advantage of the 3.1" magazine. It has been a great rifle with plenty of power and accuracy. It would be behind the WSM but not by much. My rifle has a 23" barrel and shoots 250gr Sierra's at about 2750+ and 260gr Accubonds at 2650 fps. It is a medium recoil rifle...more than my 358 Win. The thing I like about my 375/350 is it is very flexable with plenty of top end power. I think a 375 WSM would be just as flexable. I wouldn't worry about die costs...it is a one time expence. My CH4D dies for my 375/350 were less than $100. I have factory and wildcat rounds. I shoot and hunt for fun and hobby. I don't let the standard "wildcat" issues get in my way of trying something I want to try. That way when I die, people can say " well, at least he didn't just shoot factory chambered rifles" I say have fun and pick something you want to try....factory or not. If you dont like it then change it....it is just machine work. Have fun and good luck with whatever you try.

Mark H

This is what I'm thinking so far...I have a TC Encore muzzle loader. I found a place that chambers for 375 H&H or even 375WSM or several other 375 standard or wildcats...Including the 376 Styer. The place is call Virgin Valley Custom Guns...anybody had any dealings with them? Anyway...it would be cheaper to experiment with the encore than to build a custom, then find out I can't handle it or it doesn't do what I would like for it to do. If it proves to be what I'm looking for then I would have a custom built afterward.

I now have, or have owned a lot of small bore stuff...with the exception of a 444 Marlin, which I ended up trading for another rifle years ago....reloaded for all of them. My 7 Mag is my pet though...at least for now ;-)


This isn't an "ego trip" for me...least I don't think so ;-). It's all a hobby and I've always wanted a big bore for elk, moose or the big bears or even perhaps a once-in-a-life time African hunt. This is one of the reasons for the choice of 375 caliber, not to mention the article I referred to. If I was gonna be totally practical...my 7mm Mag will do all of this ...except maybe the dangerous game of Africa...but as many here say..."can you ever have enough guns?" LOL!!

I love to reload and work up loads...I have a "custom load" for nearly every weight bullet in 7 Mag now...and I'm always looking for a better load. (Looking forward to working up a good load for the 7mm 120 TXS). I do all the "accuracy tricks" to the brass and all that stuff. So, wildcat brass forming would be a pleasure, not a problem to me.


I may do this right after Christmas unless someone here comes up with a better idea. Thanks for the ideas so far and keep 'em coming if you have any more.

L8r Jim

BTW, DJ...thanks for the offer but I won't be near there anytime soon.

FYI, but I think Virgin Valley closed it's doors due to lack of investors. Might check with Bulberry though, they were in the same town and many of the VV guys started out there.

I heard this as well from a shingle shot shooter I know.

jim

if you want a 375 WSM go for it. a worth while project. i am a firm believer in the fact we only live life once so i aim to get the most out of it and experiance what i can. im going to start building a 416 Taylor(see the 375 Taylor descrip farther up and make the bullet a .416) why? because i want to and its cheaper than a Rigby by a LONNNNNNNNNNNNG shot. it will prolly never be used on anything other than deer and maybe an elk but yah know what? it sounded like a worth while project to this here 416 Rigby admiorer who has limited means. besides you prolly wont be happy till you give it a try.

Rattler

Virgin Valley has indeed closed the doors to new orders. (They may re-open building specialty parts) but you can't get a new barrel made now. I have access to their existing inventory list and it still shows that they have a couple of big bore barrels left that you might pick up for a good price if you give them a call. Not sure if the list I have is being maintained anymore, but they do build a fine barrel. To my knowledge no one will build a WSM in an encore anymore including VVC before they stopped taking orders. The Short Fat's don't really go well with the Encore so nobody's making them. You can get the H&H, Taylor etc. from Bullberry. You might also check with Mike Sirois of OTT I don't have any first hand knowledge of his work, but have heard great things about his barrels as well.

Bullberry Website

OTT Website

The work done by OTT is certainly top shelf. I have one of his barrels in 6.5x.225 winchester improved, and it is a fablous piece of work.

I tried calling but all you get is an answering machine giving all the details of the closing. I have left an email asking about the availabilty of the 375H&H but, if I understand correctly, all their stuff has been sold out to someone else. I'll try one of the other links you guys left after Thanksgiving and see what's available from them.

Thanks

CyberVirus:

If I understand your last post you apparently intend to chamber a muzzle loading rifle for a breach loading single shot.

I would say that such a proposition would be swimming in uncharted waters. There are an abundance of warnings, by gun manufacturers, about using smokeless powder in muzzle loading rifles. The intervention of a brass cartridge probably doesn't change much. I would say that personally I would only consider it if the original manufacturer gave his blessing and I doubt very much that anyone in the industry would ever do that.

If you haven't as yet heard about Toby Bridges and his accident with the Savage Model ML-10 you should view the photos and then decide.

It isn't necessary to evaluate recoil tolerance by building a prototype. Numbers are numbers. Recoil has three components all of which are measureable.

A 3" magnum 12 gauge shotgun will outkick a 375 H&H Magnum rifle. If you have a shotgun and have shot it then you know its recoil value and your tolerance. A rifle .375 caliber won't be worse.

As you may know the .308 case is an offspring of the .30-06. You can easily acquire a .375/30-06 from Fred Zeglin. That will shoot almost as powerfully as a 375 H&H, yet still kick like a 30-06. Indeed you can go upto a .411/30-06. If you wish to peruse his site and evaluate his line you can go to:

http://www.z-hat.com/

In the concept of short magnums the case is unconventional in that it it is ( comparatively ) excessively greater in diameter than customary cartridges and it is shorter. This changes the burn characteristics/performance of smokeless powders in a positive way. It burns less and produces more. Some short fat cases have proven to be exceptionally accurate to boot.

The Ackley Improved 30-06 is about 5% better than the 30-06. Fred's version improves it about another 4 to 5% so his "Hawk" 30-06 with the shoulder blown forward outperforms the 30-06 by roughly 9 to 10%.

Necking a 30-06 case up to .375, however, doesn't place it in the short magnum category. A case such as a .404 Jeffery should be considered. The .404 Jeffery is the base case for the Dakota line. In fact there is a wildcat .404/.375 which is in use on African big game and it is a real killer of anything.

The .404 Jeffery would need to be shortened to make it qualify for a "short magnum".375. The exact length would be determined by a series of calculations to determine when the water grain capacity came into equality with the desired, or design, criteria. In a sense this would be working backwards into the solution or "backing down".

This would require magazine, bolt alterations to a rifle and possibly a new barrel.

There would be the cost of a special chambering reamer and some subsequent gunsmith work such as blueing and certain selective accuratizing things, bolt lapping, trueing. Load development. Dies. Case development.

Z-Hat can handle all of that. You may want to give him a call or E-mail him.

Good Luck with your project and - Enjoy !

Bill Tibbe

Wetibbe,

Perhaps you're not familiar with the Thompson Encore. It was designed with interchangeable barrels. It can be converted from Muzzle Loader to Center Fire simply by changing barrels. In fact it also accomodates a shotgun barrel, or conversion to pistol barrels as well. The barrels can be had for a fairly reasonable amount and would be potentially an excellent choice for determining his ability to handle the recoil of the round. The barrels hold resale value quite well and if he determines he can't handle the recoil or just wants to get rid of the barrel he can sell it quite easily. As a result, I think it's an excellent choice for his purposes.

Mtnman:

Thanks for the info. But I'm still not clear. Here is what he said:

" This is what I'm thinking so far...I have a TC Encore muzzle loader. I found a place that chambers for 375 H&H or even 375WSM or several other 375 standard or wildcats...Including the 376 Styer. The place is call Virgin Valley Custom "

That specifically implies a muzzle loader.

This is apparently what YOU are talking about :

http://www.tcarms.com/catalog/pg15_cat31.jpg.php

This is referred to as a T/C System.

There is the T/C System 1 in line rifle, interchangeable barrels. And there is the Thompson/Center Encore 209x50 Magnum with interchangeabe barrels.

For my participation it is always necessary to be very specific about everything.

For example when someone tells me they have a Winchester muzzle loader that they want to chamber for a centerfire rifle breech loader I understand it as a rifle that loads from the muzzle.

As a matter of fact Fred Hall, gunsmith, conversely specialized in converting centerfire, breech loading bolt actions, and lever action guns into muzzle loading weapons.

Bill Tibbe

Mince words as you will. It's quite clear that you're unfamiliar with the Thompson Encore and are now simply looking for an opportunity to dig out from under.

Perhaps you should take a look at the second barrel in the picture you referenced. It clearly shows a Muzzle Loader barrel available for the "ENCORE", which is what the man says he has. Seems pretty specific to me...

I am talking about the extra barrel as mtnman1 understood. Sorry bout the confusion WETIBBE.

As of the first part of Jan. I'm gonna go the Encore route and if I don't like it....well I guess I'll put it up for sell at Ebay or maybe one of my friends will buy it off me...they'll want to be there when I fire that bad boy up too! ;-)

I really don't think the recoil is gonna bother me that much. I read the comments about how shotgun slugs were comparable to the big bores (at least somewhat) and I've sighted in a slug gun for one of my friends . He couldn't handle the recoil of getting it sighted in. He is ok for 2 or 3 shots, but not much more. For me it took around 15 or so before it started getting to me. I can tell when it starts...my groups open up pretty bad. As a side note...I found slug guns suprisingly accurate after you find the load they like the most!!! My buddy drives up north every year for a family hunt and had one of those cheap NEF singleshot 12guage slug shooters and that thing would shoot a 1 1/2" group if you did your part. Tuff sitting behind that thing long enough to get it sighted tho!!! He hasn't killed anything with it yet, but I don't doubt it'll kill anything that walks and breaths!!! If it were a pump, it would make a good back up gun for bears I think. I've heard some guides use them for backups.

Anyways, thanks for the input.

Jim