Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What cartridges don't kill as well as the book would suggest?

I'm thinking there are better choices for bullet than that for the 7mm-08...seen deer and antelope wacked with a 160gr NP from a 7mm Mag and wasn't impressed either

I can't argue. My M7 was one finicky beatch. Those 150's were about all it'd shoot even half good. It's a .358 now.

I did carry my 7-08 (different one) for deer this year. I used 140-gn AB's. Didn't shoot anything with it though.

Dogzapper told me once that in his years of guiding in Hells Canyon, they'd give the clients with 7-mags and heavy Partitions to the low guide on the totem pole. Said elk really tended to run with that combo.

I don't think this que3stion has any answer.

It's not the arrow. It's the Indian.

From my side of the pond i've chance to hunt a lot (6 months a year mini), lived also some years in Canada and hunted there too.
My job allows me to see lots of european game, hunted, shot and killed, from high seats to stalking to battues. If you use the right bullet, of good construction, in the right place all the cartridges we use kill well. But note we speak of killing not stopping, and in this case some are better than other for this duty. It's why the 9,3s, 35whelen, 30-06 and 8mm Mauser have a large following in Europe.In France i think most problem arose with 300, 7mm and 270Mag not because they are bad but because hunters use them in a job they are not made for and buy the cheapest cartridges with bullets of not so tough structure. But all year long poachers shoot and kill red deers and wild boars, gams and roes with suppressed 22lr or Hornets, that don't make them good cartridges for driven hunts...
I saw some highly respected bullets failed, bad utilisation in two fast a caliber, not adapted to short range shooting (over expansion, no penetration or desintegration) not on African buffalos, only red deers or wild boars. From my perspective as handloader i choose bullets adapted to my calibers, velocity,and range where i will most use them, not by brand or name but by real experiences on hunting ground.

To oldman: Even if i'm french i also use Barnes from 1995, and but not for everithing and not for all calibers (got some believe me, even rare and widcat ones). Had good chance with Fail Safe but will never say they are do everything every caliber bullets...
Dominique

The cartridge is the engine. It is more of using the correct bullet for the application and shot placement.

JD338

Yeah I have seen the same thing many times.....they really peel outta there alright!

Bob, I think the 7mm RM, like the 243, is one of the rounds that is "cool" to dislike. I've owned exactly one 7mm RM and never shot a darn thing with it, but the idea that a 160 partition at over 3k wouldn't flatten stuff out is beyond silly.

But I'm also one that thinks the 243 is a fine round...

Brad, I dunno...I will admit that the 160 Partition is a pretty tough slug IME,and I have seen a mule deer or two HIT BADLY with it make some tracks...but whacked through the boiler room,it killed just fine...sometimes too fine,as ther was very extensive damage.

I have seen elk hit BADLY with it make tracks also,but I have seen the same from a 340....so....

Chest or shoulder hit to about 500 yards,elk I have seen hit with the 7 mag with 160 Partition generally went in one direction....down.

IIRC the bullet was one of Bob Hagels' favorites from the Mashburn and 7 Rem mag. I don't remember him,or Les Bowman,or Warren Page, or others who were on the scene for the development of the heavy Noslers from 7 mags notice or mention any of these "problems"...course what the hell did they know....there was no internet back then.

So many myths......so much utter nonsense

Yes, the Internet has a way of doing that.

Hello All
I'm amazed at the number of members that veiw a shotgun slug as not effective or aniemic on game. A Foster slug or even Lightfield Hybreds are designed not to exit deer, and are very soft lead. Where as Breneke, solid copper, or Nosler slugs are capable bullets for North American game within nominal range(typically inside 100yds). Even the 20ga Partition load from Win. pushes the same .45cal 260gr bullet 1900fps, 100fps faster than the 454 Casull load #SPG454 witch nobody claims as underpowered. I understand that slugs are not the perfect projectile, but as with all hunting arms the right slug, sluggun, and range make them effective killers.
nelson

Hit them solid in a vital zone and almost anything will work (with proper bullets).

Having been a writer and sometime editor for a while, I would edit that to say:

Hit them in the vitals and anything works.

That's the trick. I'll never own a 7mm Rem Mag because the bullet is still rising at 400 yards...seems like that would make it hard to hit with . I read that here.

And this gets at the heart of the matter. When I started this thread I was wondering what it meant to be more effective than paper ballistics would say, or less so. I think people get too wrapped up in the details. There is not so grand a difference as rifle loonies like to believe.

My 7x57 and .375 have, to date, had exactly the same effect on the deer I have shot with them.

No such thing as overkill - yet underkill is possible.

As an aside - cartridges do not kill. Bullets do - when placed in anatomic neccessities.

You never know what will happen when a bullet hits meat and bone. Shoot more than once if necessary. The more you practice your shooting from field positions, the fewer shots will be necessary in the field...

Hunters are an anecdotal breed, and bad juju on calibers and loads spreads faster than swine flu.

Here's an anecdote"

My brother and dad developed accurate loads with their twin Ruger .300s featuring Nosler 200 gr. Partitions for a guided deer/elk trip to Montana in the early '90s.

Only my brother got a shot, at a young muley about 150 yards off. The Nosler PT sailed through front to back on an angle and it took off unconcerned _ it seemed _ for a couple hundred yards. When they found it, internal exam showed minimal tissue damage. But it WAS dead.

I ran across that box of 200 gr. Partitions still half full on Dad's cluttered bench the other day. They decided the bullets were too hard. I may load some up in my 760 '06 and kill a deer with it this fall just to mess with 'em...

Well, not sure what "book" is referred to by the original poster. If he means ballistics tables, then as long as velocity/energy/bc are represented I don't see how the book would be off. Barring bullet construction differences, which doesn't seem to be what he's asking.

As far as cartridge promotion.. I'd have to say the 303 Savage was a bit oversold at the turn of the 20th century.




And the 22HP was WAY oversold. Taking tigers in Bengal with a 22 caliber takes some some serious balls.

coldcase: That's a good observation.... IMO this is because many hunters/shooters operate under the mistaken notion that rifles/bullets, etc are bludgeons;over sized clubs or Mack Trucks that "knock down" game animals, and kill by mysterious forces measureable by numbers and slipsticks,and that there is this vast difference between a Partition and an Accubond, etc etc....

They fail to realize that,in the end, BG rifles are (as O'Connor once wrote)scalpels;instruments designed to perform a surgical function at a distance,ie destroy vital organs and break heavy bone in the process that are essential to life and mobility.

So when they shoot an animal squarely through the boiler room (they think), or maybe hit a bit on the bias,or miss vitals or other essential stuff altogether,or use a bullet too tough or too soft and the uncooperative critter fails to fall down immediately, the cartridge is a "lousy killer"......or the "bullet failed",and you read such supersilious nonsense as was posted above regarding the 7 mag and heavy Partitions,with the guides drawing straws so the loser ends up with the Partition shooter.Sometimes the offending cartridge is the 30/06....or the 243...or the 270.Comical really....kinda like Saturday morning cartoons......

Frankly I believe none of it at all.. ..I have been in a lot of hunting camps,paid for a lot of hunts,and been "guided" here and there.I notice that guides tend to scrammble from fellas who do not do so hot at the sighting-in session....this little exercise is not just to see if your rifle is zeroed........it's to check YOU out as well.

I have never been sent packing because of the rifle,cartridge, or bullet that I was shooting....

It is no small wonder that there is so much utter nonsense spewed about by people with vacant agendas regarding cartridge effectiveness.(sigh)

This is a silly topic, seeing as each round will perform exactly to what the ballistics tables suggest. The only variable is what rifle you shoot them in, and how good of a shot you are. Sure some calibers are only offered in junky rifles, but that shouldn't reflect the round. You will also get yourself alot of stories from people who are less than "acceptable" shooters.

What you missed is the very subtle mocking in the question. It was essentially a challenge to see if anyone can come up with calibers that perform poorly despite their ballistics. Lots of people want to give credit to one caliber or another as "exceeding their paper ballistics..."