Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Which would you choose?

With a good rifle and carefully working up your loads, you should be able to safely get the 165's up near 2900 fps. If you think you are going to be shooting that far, use Barnes TSX boattails. I would say that inch and a half groups is very good with factory ammo.

Failing that, go with the WinMag, since the ammo is more readily available in out of the way places. I am shooting 75 grains of RL22 behind a 168 TSX for about 3000 fps - a light load, but it shoots just over half inch groups at 100 yards. I shot a buck this year at 225 yards. Way more than enough snort. Buy another gun if you want. But your '06 is plenty of gun for deer at that range. And a longer barrel will only increase your velocities with slower powder, and may not affect your accuracy one bit. My '06 has a 22" barrel and with my favourite handloads it shoots 1" all day long.

Another thing to think about is that field accuracy is usually not as good as bench accuracy because you won't have a solid bench and bags etc. With any of the calibres mentioned, range estimation is critical. Bullet drop is starting to get fairly pronounced between 350 - 500 yards. If you are out by 50 yards, it could mean a miss. Lots to think about. Hope you can live with the choice you make.

gundog-notes taken.

I was not trying to imply or say that groups would shrink with a longer barrel, actually group size is paramount to quality barrel and ammo. My suggestion for a longer barrel is that you can eeek out some more velocity which "may" give you more range for point blaking or less dialing on the turrents at the distance your shooting.

Sounds like when you dive into this you will have a real good head start on your way to your objective! We all want to hear about it and help and learn along the way with you!

What caliber you decided on yet?

Flinch, you're such a killjoy. Let the man buy a rifle.

I'm coming into this a bit late but Let me add a couple things that may not have popped into your thoughts here. If you practice at the 400 yard range you wish to shoot at and it's calm and the exact range is known the 30/06 with turrets on a good scope is a fine choice. The 300 Magnums may give you a bit flatter trajectory but there is more to making those shots then the trajectory.

First consider that at 150-200 yards hitting the deer should be a gimmie shot.......right? Not one little thought about it, just put the crosshairs on and shoot....Game over every time 100% cannot fail. Every deer in that range will be in the truck.......Right? Lets hope so! The reason being that you likely have the 30/06 zeroed for 200 or 250 yards. That makes the rifle 3" high at 100 yards, and about 3.25" at 180 yards for the highpoint of the trajectory with the 165 grain interbonds at 2900fps an easy load to produce.

If that deer is at 180 yards and you hold dead on the center of the chest your bullet impact is at 3.25" higher then you aimed,... right? That is the worst case scenerio for the 30/06 shooting with a 250 yard zero. closer or further then this by 100 yards either way is actually closer to the desired POI.

Now lets say you want to use a 300 weatherby and shoot 500 yards. Assuming the logical zero point of 300 yards. With a 180 grain bullet at 3200FPS (a rather hot load but achievable with a 26" barrel) That bullet will be 3.9 inches high at 200 yards zero at 300 minus 9" at 400 and minus 25" at 500 yards. So what we have built is a deadly point and shoot rifle from zero to 150 yards and then again from 250 to 350 yards. There is a 100 yard area here which should be a "gimmie" but will require some concentration on your part to make this work. You not only have the drop beyond 350 to factor into any shot taken but also from 150 to 250 yards as well. You no longer have a hunting rifle for nearly any eventuality but rather a gun which requires definate consideration for just about any shot you take.

This is not a bad thing but something you give up with a 30/06 and a more commonly achievable max range. I have witnessed these kinds of high shots on game that should be a "gimmie" more times then I can even count over the years I have been a PH in RSA.

The conversation starts with something like this. Hunter: I can group 1MOA out to 500 yards with this rifle on a calm day, no problem! OK then we have an impala ( deer size) at 175 yards and the shot goes high with a complete miss?? Well we are 4" high at that range with a 300 mag and because of an angle, nerves, heart rate, Buck fever, the guns weight after packing it for 3 hours, whatever it might be. The fella aims dead on and either misses or blows a hole through the body above the organs and below the spine. How embarrasing that this guy who has set up a gun for the nearly impossible and extremnely rare 500 yard shot does not make a shot at only 175 yards. This is not a rare example. Unfortunately it happens more then a few times each year. I still tend to be baffled at the amount of folks who plan for the 1 in a 1000 chance at 400 plus yrds and sacrifice the common or most typical shots offered at under 250 yards.

My point is that buying a rifle and going through the expense to make it work to 500 yards consistantly will very likly distort it's use at 250 and under. The functional scale slides one way or the other. You can make it right for the longer 500 yard shots or the "gimmie" shots at 250 and under. I never really concern myself with a rare missed shot by my hunters over 300 yards because that is such a long shot that I know before the bullet leaves the barrel it's a risky shot. However when I have a hunter miss at 150 yards It will spook me into more control over the hunt to be certain it does not happen again.

To make shots at 500 yards you need a gun that is going to be well over 10 pounds and likely about 14-15 pounds. To that add a bipod, at least a 26" barrel and better yet a 28" barrel. Then you need target turrets and a laser rangefinder. Now once prone and settled in you have about a 3500-5000 dollar rifle/scope/(gear) that can make this happen after you have put in the practice to verify the POI at every distance.

Try packing that rifle all day and then making the quick "gimmie" shot at 175 yards! Not really all that good for the majority of your hunting. I had the misconception of what a 300 mag will do about 1980-84 or somewhere in there. I bought a 300 WTBY mag and shot it to 500-600 and further. I shot lots of game with it but never killed anything over 300 yards, well maybe a few bears were over 300 but not by a whole lot. Then one day with my good friend Duncan Gilchrist(rest his soul) we saw a badger about 140 yards out on a prairie dog mound. I got prone and tuned it loose. The badger stood looking at the bullet impact behind him someplace. He ran closer towards me. At about 120 yards he stood again. Prone and locked into position I missed clean again! Now a badgers whole body is about the size of a kill zone on deer and I missed the whole thing twice! Why? Because I forgot that I had a 4" high 100 yard POI so My longer shots would be OK. Yep I could shoot long no trouble but the "gimmie" shots were not easy anymore. In a hurry humans tend to point and shoot and with a high trajectory you will screw up the "gimmie" shots far to frequently.

Even with a 300 yard zero on a 300 mag your still 25" low at 500 yards. That means holding above the animal. Holding in the air is irresponsible 100% of the time for everyone on earth. Nobody can judge air distance at 500 yards. At 400 yards you have a 9" drop. That is do-able without a stretch under perfect conditions. The 30/06 is 11" low at 350 and just as effective under the same conditions. So what you really have is an effective difference of only 50 yards believe it or not.

If you choose to build a true 500 yard capable rifle, which will be consistant enough to make this happen it will not likely be the same gun you use for any other hunting. This kind of project gun is very special and very expensive. Even more important it requires a very talented operator! I sold my 300 WTBY to a friend of mine. I replaced it with a 30/06 in 1989. I have never felt undergunned or missed the 300 WTBY a sinlge time. My 30/06 is deadly, easy to shoot, and more then 2 pounds lighter then the 300 wtby. I have a friend who is an excellent Mule deer hunter with about as much experience as anyone I know on Mule deer. He has just about the ultimate long range rifle for open country Mulies. Its a 257 WTBY that is built for the kind of shooting your after. His rifle is probably the heaviest hunting rifle I have ever held. I would guess 15 pounds or more, maybe closer to 18 pounds? It's completely constructed for the long to bizzare long shots taken in these conditions. But you are not gonna pack that bugger or shoot it free hand!

The shots you hear folks making at longer ranges are likely true, although they may not have known the exact distance. My question is always this: How many times had they tried this long shot and how many times had they actually killed something? I rather doubt that anyone does this consistant with a common deer rifle in any cartridge. Here are some numbers to consider. These are from my 300 WTBY and My 30/06 both are conservative but also realistic:

30/06 165gr 2900fps
100yds 2.9" high
200yds 3.2" high
250yds "0"
300yds -5"
350yds -11"

300 wtby 180gr 3150 fps
100yds 3.5" high
200yds 4.2" high
300yds "0"
400yds -9.3"
500yds -25"

The power difference between them when used on big game under 500 pounds is not relevent at these ranges, they both have plenty to do the deed. However at ranges under 200 yards the 300 mag better have premium bullets if any bones are hit. None of this even brings into consideration the pounding you will take to get proficient with the 300 mag, nor the expense of ammo. Now to be honest if you build a heavy long range rifle with a long barrel, turrets, and a premium high end scope you can kill deer size game to 500 yards with reletive ease in calm winds. However those days are rare out in the open western plains. Hope this helps with a few things you may not have considered.

JJ, Thanks for the info. I have actually considered many of the things you have mentioned, some of which I had not. Although I am not looking for an exclusive rifle for extremely long shot's (as I mentioned above, the longest shot at a target I have taken was 338 yards) I would like to shoot those Hornady Interbonds, or perhaps the TSX at a little faster rate than I am now. Many of the replies lead me to believe that if I were to put a longer barrel on my 30-06 I could use that added velocity to great effect in acheiving my objective.

I am not someone that is bent on making very long shots on game for the sake of making long shots. I am a firm believer in getting close if possible. The longest shot I have made to date on game was between 200 and 300 yds. Didn't have laser range finder so can't say for sure, but it was in that neighborhood. I live an hunt in Nebraska which means unless I am hunting a river or creek bottom I am usually out in the great "wide open". Wind is a deffinate factor and one that I have to consider but if the right opportunity were to present itself I would like to be able to take advantage of it. So practice I must.

I thank everyone for their replies. I have learned a lot. Just another example of why I like this place so much. Most likely I will not be jumping into this until after the first of the year, so I have some time to consider my options.

If I go to a 26" barrel on this 30-06 and can squeeze 3100 fps, or more, out of a 165 gr Interbond .... and get good accuracy .... I would be one happy camper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again all.

Mark

This is kinda the ffzzzt at the end of the firecracker after JJ's post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you can achieve your goals satisfactorily by handloading the '06, including neck turning and neck sizing, and using a lazer rangefinder. 1.5 moa is perfectly acceptable out to 400 yards - it's likely far better than you can hold under field conditions anyway - but all the accuracy you can get can't hurt! If the handloading bit doesn't quite satisfy you, a new precision barrel of equal or longer length should do it, but I think you need the rangefinder anyway, FIRST.

As I have posted a number of times before (and regular readers are probably getting tired of it), I have a 17 inch barrelled '06. I'd guess it's muzzle velocity is almost certainly less than that of a 20 or 22 inch .308, but haven't chroned it. The first animal I killed with it was a Dall ram at about 330 yards- I had 3 ways of measuring distance - with 165 grain Factory bullets which cloverleafed the first 3 shots, then balooned further shots from barrel heating. All 3 methods of range estimation agreed it was 300 to 350 yards. I chose to hold for the 350 figure, just in case. I forgot the rifle was sighted in 4.5 inches high at 100 (long story), instead of my standard 2.5 to 3", held just hair-of-daylight over the top of the shoulder hump, and put the bullet an eighth inch above the spine, between two vertebrae spurs. The second shot, as the ram was propping himself up on his front legs, with just a bit of hair over the horizontal, went about 5 inches lower and an inch farther back, through the shoulder blade. That was 15 years ago, about. The high sight-in affected the kill 4 days later of a bull moose at 80 yards not a bit. (that 5 days was a mighty short hunting season, especially since I worked 3 of them!!!)

This fall, after a number of other animals taken, including moose, black bear, caribou, and sheep, none exceeding 200 yards, I again took an animal in excess of 300 yards with the same rifle - this time using 180 grain factory Corelocts, which it shoots into 1.5 inch groups all day long, after glass bedding and freefloating the original barrel (I'll take consistancy over very tight accuracy for only 3 shots every time. I think) In this case, it was zeroed center of group 3.5 inches high at 100 yards prior to an alpine caribou hunt i.e. longer range shooting could be expected.

I estimated the bull (buy a lazer range finder - I'm going to!) at 300 yards prior to the shot, held 1/3 forward from the back of his shoulder hump, broadside, just even or a hair under with his back line. My bullet went about 6 inches lower than planned (a function of range mis-estimation - i.e. BUY A RANGEFINDER!!), shattering his brisket, slicing open one chamber of his heart, with the jacket and a small piece of lead core lodging against his far side knee bones. His dash quartering away, another turn, and another dash back toward me dropped him at about the same range I shot him at. From my 3-flat-stone-with-hat-atop rest, to where he lay, paced off at 357 long straightline paces, probably averaging just over a yard each.

The point is, I agree with JJ - an '06 will do it fine,IF YOU KNOW THE RANGE. Range estimation beyond 300 yards becomes critical, no matter how hot your shootzenboomer. And the difference between the hot ones and the slow ones isn't that great, practically speaking.

Otherwise, I'd go with the .300WSM, for its shorter, stiffer action, potentially lighter weight, and equivalent performance with the .300WM, all with slightly less powder and recoil (or so I've read). I'm lusting after one myself, for no really good reason.

I don't like Weatherby calibers. Too much powder, kick, and noise for too little gain. Ammo can be harder to get also, is spendy, and even the raw brass is expensive. I see not one real advantage to the Wby calibers.

just a kick, how about using those 150 gr X bullets?

Crank them up in velocity and they will do the deed near and far!

Just a thought....