Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Yikes! I Ruined Some Powder!

About 5 years ago I began doing some loading for a friend of mine.
He was shooting a 223 Remington and the price of factory ammo was getting to him.
We bought him some dies and components and for two years or so I loaded for him.
He then traded his Rifle off for some exercise equipment and his dies went along on the trade.
I kept his powder (one pound at a time) in my powder locker in my loading room.
This loading room is part of my house and therefore is at a constant 69 degrees and the loading room is dark 95% of the time and the locker is dark 99.9% of them time.
My mistake I think was I kept my friends powder in the original Hodgdon plastic can with metal lid which was then inserted in a large sealable NEW sandwich bag type thing!
The bag had a place to write on and my friends name was entered there.
This latest (and now ruined!) "can" of H 322 powder had been in this bag for 2 years at least!
Well last night I was in the powder locker and was searching for some H 4895 powder when I looked at the can of powder my friend had left. There it was IN the sandwich bag all sealed up nice with the most horrid redish brown corrosion imagineable all around the metal screw cap/lid!
I was dumbfounded!
I took it out of the locker and opened the sandwich bag and corrosion fell out on the floor. I tried to unscrew the metal cap and it literally disintegrated in my hands.
It would not unscrew and the threaded part of the lid was completely disintegrated and the top of the lid would not hand pry loose from the plastic containers lid mouth!
I literally could NOT believe this had happened!
I checked all the rest of the containers in that locker (about 30 of them) and NONE had any signs of corrosion or corroding on them!
I took the corroded can out and placed it in the garbage.
For the life of me I can not figure what would cause this situation - I know the BIG sealable sandwich bag was new and un-used as I took it from the VarmintWifes stash of these. It came out of the factory carton of these things.
The ONLY things I can think of is the "lid" of the powder container reacted somehow to the plastic sandwich bag causing this complete corrosion?
Or, maybe some pwoder fumes contained by the sandwich bag reacted with the lid and caused it to corrode - badly?
Anyway lesson learned - do not store friends left-over powder can in a sealed sandwich bag!
Yikes at the price of powder these days I feel some pain.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Weird!

live and learn..

Stored some powder for a friend, while he had no place to do so..

but I just put his name on the container with a sharpie..

maybe a chemist member of the forum will chime in and explain what happened..

I'd bet it had something to do with the nitro in the powder.

i had the same thing happen to a can of hodgdon. powder in a plastic bottle think it was h322 also but not positive. no plastic bag involved. went into the reloading room one day an noticed rust on lid. powder in can full of brown dust. never figured out what caused it. i don't think h322 has been around that long as powders go, have had 4831 that was really old with no problems ?

Ed

Well, I am a chemist and work in a nitration facility (not associated with explosives, but adhesives and plastics). Without seeing or, believe it or not, smelling, what happened, and without benefit of any other analysis, I'll hazard a GUESS. Its been my experience that something like this is usually a combination of several factors and not just one, thus, this is why its a GUESS.

Ever smell the "sweet" smell in powder? That's the smell of a solvent used in the extraction of the powder from its original chemical matrix--its active ingredients begins life in extraordinarily strong acid. The powder itself contains nitrates and some residual moisture. My suspicion is that in the confines of the plastic bag, the normal off-gassing from this solvent reacted with any moisture and some byproduct from powder production to form a simple organic acid. Once the organic acid formed, there was likely some hydrolysis of the nitrates too that possibly formed some combination of an amic acid, an/or (though not quite as likely) weak nitrous acid. This quickly corroded the lid. I wouldn't even be surprised if the metal in the lid itself my not have hurried this chemistry along as well. I also wouldn't be too surprised that if the powder was not extracted from the matrix as efficiently, or as cleanly, as possible, this could also lead to similar problems. Even then, I would expect this to take some time and may even require something else like excess heat or moisture to speed the process.

Anyway, I'll think on this for a day or two, check a couple of references and see if my off the cuff analysis holds water.

Huntaria_Setters: Thank you so much for the learned opinion (I think it sure sounds plausible so I won't consider or call it a guess).
The reason I put the can of H 322 into the bag to begin with was so I could easily and quickly retrieve my friends powder and not mistake one of my cans of H 322 (of which I have three in the same locker right now and they are fine).
A "more learned" (intelligent) way to distinguish his powder from mine would have been to put a big piece of white tape on the lid and write his name on it.
Duh!
And on that point let me be clear for your further considerations I have had H 322 in the same locker for the same length of time and one of my H 322's is an even earlier can label design (color) than the one that self destructed!
So my large plastic storage bag more than likely has something to do with the problem.
Thanks again for your time and thoughts.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

1234: I could not get the lid off of the can. So I did not look and see if the powder had "rusted" like I have seen some old military and poorly stored powders become.
Maybe tomorrow I will take a screwdriver and some bandages and a fire extenguisher out into the yard, retrieve the discarded container and pry it open?
Put your thinking cap on there Ed and try hard to remeber if indeed it was H 322 as its one of my favorite powders!
When I retrieve the powder can I will look for a date on it or a batch number/lot number.
I am NOT holding the Hodgdon folks in any way responsible for this "event".
I have used H 322 for a LONG time and never had problem one with it til this thing.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Seafire: Yep, from now on its a large swath of white tape placed on the can and the owners name written on that!
If something wierd can happen - it will happen to me!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Call your friendly fire dept. if you even think you have an unstable situation. Some of the byproducts from eroded powder can be very dangerous. I know that sounds like nervous Nancy sort of stuff, and, well, maybe it is, but its better to be safe than sorry. Its one reason you pay taxes.

Oh well, it's spring time. The grass needs a little fertilizer.

Huntaria, incomplete neutralization of nitrating acids in that particular batch? I think they add calcium carbonate for that for acid that gets retained in the grain after rinsing.

Oh man. That's exactly what I was going to say.....but you beat me to it.

I checked the MSDS of H322. Its a single base (nitrocellulose) powder. Don't know what process the Austrailians use, but the nitrocellulose is extracted from either a single strong or multiple strong acids. It contains the usual stabilization additives (diphenylamine) and, as you noted calcium carbonate (CaCO3) that aids in neutralizing residual acid in what should otherwise be relatively clean (low residual acid) nitrocellulose. The CaCO3, while there to neutralize existing acids should also serve to retard degradation. (There are some other ingredients there too. One of which is an another active ingredient. What I'm not sure of is whether this is a process byproduct, or intentional, but the effect is the same.)

Anyway, you are correct that it could be from incomplete neutralizatoin. However, having worked in the chemical industry for over 20 years, my gut tells me that a combination of factors probably caused this problem. For example, it doesn't have to be solely the the acid used in the nitration process, again, other acids can form from the organics used in the process of forming the grains of gunpowder from its active ingredients.

Bottom line, though, is I'm speculating. A simple analysis would quickly determine the root cause. Makes me want to put some H322 in a baggy with mild carbon steel!

Well, given the aromas from powder, slightly acidic with a skosh of ether overtones, all it would take is a dab of moisture and a little outgassing in a confined area, with that nice tasty metal right there for any precipitates. Mmmm, mmmm, good!

Well, this is my first instinct. Usually (not always), the nitrocellulose is reprocessed from an ester before the deterrents and flow aids are added. It is these esters that are labile for hydrolysis to carboxylic acid. The hydrolysis can be either from heat and water and/or base or acid. But again, its speculation based upon a very nice description provided by VarmintGuy.

Huntaria_Setters: I sure appreciate all of your/s inputs.
I learned some things.
Thanks again
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy