Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 44 Mag, 310 gr WFN GC

For the original post,in a 5 1/2"bl 19gr of H110 got me 1240fps,20gr got me 1315fps.As far as kieths go I think they are like the first model A,they were a good start,but better as collectibles now.The deer I have shot with kieths are dead or still running.And before you start they left blood and in one case lots of it.For me I'll never shoot a kieth at anything but paper.But that's JMO.

Well in the last couple of days I've shown a very small portion of game taken with Keith style slugs in Idaho, Wyoming, Texas, Montana, Utah, Alaska & Africa, and this includes deer, elk, bear, moose, antelope, mountain lions, feral hogs, Javelina, Warthogs, etc. I guess the game is just a lot tougher in some states because those Keith slugs have never failed me, ever.
I do believe that many times people have bad experiences when shooting from elevated tree stands, this is just a guess but I think they shoot over the front lung, this is a bad hit whether with a handgun or a rifle. Again this is just a guess as I don't hunt from tree stands over bait, bait is illegal here in the west.
It does puzzle me that a Keith slug through the lungs isn't as good as an LBT through the lungs. Lots of blood doesn't mean a lung shot or even a fatal shot, at least not immediately. I'll keep on plugging them with my Keiths (model A's) & LBT's & I'll take the blame if its a bad shot.

Doe muley, taken at about 50 yds with a Ruger flattop 44 maggie & the 250 Keith, shot was lengthways & exited, dropped at the shot.



Bull elk, taken in the 70's when I was a young rooster, gun was the 44 magnum in the shoulder rig, bullet was the 250 Keith, broadside shot at 35 yds, bullet exited & the bull ran down hill about 30-40 yds, down & out in 5 seconds.



Dick

I have no dought that you have killed a lot of game with the Keith style SWC. The fact is the wider meplat bullets give a better visual impact on game and leaves a larger diameter wound channel. In its day the Keith SWC was the best around, but alas we have better choices today.

I have killed Carribou with the Keith SWC, but I preferred the wider meplat bullets. They are accurate, and leave larger diameter wound channels. I mean what's not to like?

We are living in the days of great handgun and bullet choices. The best in history IMHO, why not tap into the best of the best? It doesn't cost any more.

Idaho 1945 all deer shot from the ground.The only thing the kieth did kill for me was at an angle and then it was up and a spine shot.I am glad they work for you and I never said the game here was any tougher,but glad you think so. I said they haven't worked for me,and confidence in your choice of weapon and ammo is the only place to start and for what it's worth not everyone in the SE hunts out of stands and over bait! again JMO

I shot this buck with a RCBS-270-SAA, the only deer I have shot with a Keith bullet.

I have shot close to a dozen hogs with 44 and 45 Keiths. They always killed fine for me when placed properly.

I can't lay claim to JJ's bear counts, but I never see mentioned the distances he shot all of these bears. I believe they were control issues, so I believe him shooting treed or trapped bears would help them open. Something I've found not to always happen as distances get longer....

Then again, I never seen any deer sized stuff run away with cast flatnoses in the vitals.

Idaho, thanks!

JWP475, I agree with you on the LBT's, I've said several times that they are a better choice. The part I don't understand is why everyone thinks going bigger is a better way to go, I think accuracy is a better way to go but many people continue to side step the fact that accuracy is much more important than bullet style. Those that knock the Keith slug simply are kidding themselves if they believe their LBT style will kill & the Keith style will only wound, thats if both are placed properly, I'll just never get it!
I make both & I use both........lots of them, and the LBT is better, I think I've said that 3 times in the last couple of days but I fail to understand those that knock the Keith slug, guess I'm just a slow learner.
Lion, taken at 5' using a 357 maggie & the 173 gr Keith slug, down & out in 2 seconds.....luck for me!



Cow elk, taken with my 41 maggie & the 230 gr. Keith at about 40 yds, shot entered behind right front shoulder & exited in front of left hind quarter, penetrated about 4 feet, you can see the exit hole in front of the hip, she ran in a little circle for 10-15 yds & down, would an LBT have worked better?



Nice muley buck taken with a Ruger 44 flattop & the Keith 250 gr slug, shot was about 40 yds, buck was laying down when I shot him, he stood up & fell over just as I recocked the gun.
Wearing an old Lawrence shoulder rig.



Another photo of my lion, hardest day I ever had hunting, 11 hrs on showshoes.



I don't believe one experience with a bullet is a good indicator of how good or how bad it works. I've taken 3 elk with the 325 gr LBT LFN, its a wonderful bullet but none of the 3 were overly impressed with it, it worked but it wasn't magic, they took just as long as any of the other elk have taken (27 elk) nothing will ever make up for placement & penetration.

Dick

Idaho, when I mention "Kieth" style I am refering to the original. There are SWC bullets on the market today that are adverised as "Keith" style but have a meplat as wide and sometimes wider than the original "Keith" Style. I am not sure that every SWC that is mentioned is a "true Keith" style. I have some 230 Grain SWC's that have an extremely wide meplat in 41 cal. These are not original "Keith" style SWC's and have a much wider meplat.

I also agree that if one has no accuracy or poor accuracy then one has a useless load IMHO

..am I incorrect in thinking the following...

Let us say a .41 LBT has a .33 meplat...and the 255 CPBC does have exactly that. And let us say a .44 Keith has a .33 meplat. Is there going to be any difference if both hit the animal at the same speed?

There was an article not too long ago by I believe Brian Pence proving it was the shoulder not the meplat of the Keith bullet that cut the hole...

Personally I don't think it really makes a difference in a hard cast non-expanding bullet...I like and shoot both designs...

Bob

Brian Pearce has a very good article on loading the .44 Mag with heavy bullets in this month's Handloader magazine. Typical Pearce. Lots of data and little rumor. Very good write. Goes right along with your original question. BTW Pearce will argue the point about the shoulder of the Keith not cutting flesh. And he'll argue with experience and pictures. Seen his articles on it. No dog in the fight for me. I'm learning.

When the front of the bullets are painted and fired into ballistic jellitin the paint stays on the wad cutter shoulder. Indicating that the shoulder has not came into contact with the media.

Pearce is the same writer that wrote the reason that 454 cases were sticking in the SRH cylinder was because the particular grade of steel expanded under presurre and then contracted back down around the brass. Well the steel does indeed expand and countract as does any and all grades of steel

Don't recall him arguing the point on ballistic jellitin, just flesh. In this article he addresses handloads of heavy jacketed bullets as well as WFN's. Seems to like both of those as well as the Keith style under varying circumstances. Has obviously bounced a fair amount of game with a handgun.

Idaho1945 I have a question.I said "They didn't work for me" and from your post I am one of the kieth bullet bashers so to speak.So because you have done so well with them am I suppose to keep on shooting them into animals when I have no faith in them?I know folks,my wife is one,who has had great service out of a chevy truck,I have had better luck with a ford product,we own a dodge becuase my brothers had really good luck with them(point being different opinions people have them).Just because one has a different opinion because of their experiences doesn't make them a bad shot/a novice hunter/tree stander or bait hunter as you referenced earlier.And you've obviously killed tons of game,ever seen one hit in the right spot and carry it like it was the mail?Ever seen one hit wrong and just fall over?Bullets like caliber choice IMO are the same,ask one hunter from every state which they feel is the best and I doubt you will come up with one caliber and one bullet for a nation of hunters,JMO

Cottonstalk, first off let me welcome you to the forum, I think we all missed doing that. If you go back & read what I said I mentioned the fact that I was just guessing about the shots from treestands, I'll follow up on that later. I think I also said that everyone should shoot what they have good luck with, correct me if I didn't say that.
I've also already said that the LBT style is a better game bullet but I haven't had a single failure with the Keith slugs...& I haven't. If a person has had one thats not a fair comparsion, now if they've had more than one it has to either be the bullet not working or the shooter not shooting. How do you know for a fact that you've made a fatal shot when you didn't recover the animal?
I don't have a thing against hunting from a treestand & didn't say I did, I was stationed in Texas for 4 years & if you're going to hunt in Texas you will hunt from some type of stand, either on the ground or in a tree.
So far on this thread there hasn't been anyone stepping up & saying they've had the Keith fail on them except for you & you didn't explain how you knew that so I can just guess that the deer was quite close & you seen the impact.
Now, what I said earlier about a person possibly missing the on side lung when hunting from a treestand. Last year a good friend called me & said he was swearing off cast bullets, now he is an excellent shot, I've shot with him before & he's very capable. OK, he's never killed a deer with a sixgun, he whacks a smallish whitetail from his elevated treestand, she runs off & he loses her. His gun was a 475 Linebaugh using a 440 gr cast LBT bullet, he swears he hit her solid, yet didn't find her. I'm only guessing, just like I said before, but I think because of the elevation above the deer that he hit that little soft spot above the lungs & below the spine, could be wrong but what do you think might have happened, he said the shot was about 15-18 yds.
Well I've tried to defend the old Keith slug, even though I've posted photo's of maybe 20 animals & could show another 50 or more I still don't see any respect for the Keith SWC & everyone's in love with the LBT, including me. I just don't get it with the Keith, old Elmer would be very disappointed after all these years that his "baby" doesn't work anymore.

This is Elmer Keith in about 1974 or 75, can't remember, we were in his trophy room out back of his house in Salmon, Idaho, the old Prophet is probably rolling over in his grave tonight from the pounding he took today.




Dick

Idaho1945 The load 255 kieth @ 1150 fps.Three deer shot with the same load with different results.One shot in a woods path fell on its head,never moved or flinched(approx distance 25yards,quartering toward me).I headed out to retrieve an atv and upon my return said deer was gone.Where the deer fell a large pile of blood remained and just inside the edge of the woods another pile of blood,appeared as though that was where the deer fell down.Block of woods where this took place was 7-10acres.The entire block has been combed 3 times by myself and several friends,nothing any idea?

Deer two shot in path in different block of woods,from a box stand(approx distance 45yards,quartering away).At the shot heard a "smack" deer wabbled as if about to fall and then ran out of there like a bat out of hadees.One small thimble size spot of blood was all that was ever found.Extensive searches have been made since season went out and still nothing any ideas?

Deer three less than twenty yards quartering away appeared as though she was going down as she left the path....nothing.All deer were does,so I can't figure it buck fever.I practice to 50 yards and achieve 3-4" groups,regularly before season started,and shot after every situation during the season with same results,any ideas?

For what its worth I was one the ground for the first and last situation.These are some experiences,all this past season.For me it causes reason to question.Thanks for the welcome.

Cottonstalk, ya know what, I'd quit using the damn things!

Dick

JJ's experiences on black bears was with all sorts of cartriages and loads. His expereinces with the .44 Magnum, which he has also used alot for bear contol work, was what I was refering to. The SWC and wide flat point, super heavy lead bullets were no where near as fast killers when compared to the better jacketed rds. He stated once that even the 180 gr. HP loads worked adequately on body hits with black bears.
I suspect your claim that wide flat points work better than the classic SWC's is based on some sort of bullet testing. Mine isn't. It''s based on killing stuff with both full wadcutters and mild loaded SWC's. No difference in the various wound channels or how fast they kill was apparent. therefore the difference is really only apparent in some sort of test medium.
It all comes down to which trade off you want. More penetration or a wider wound channel. You trade one for the other. But the standard load of a 250 gr. cast lead bullet at 1150-1200 fps. has long had the rep for penetrating anything anybody needs to kill. That was established long before the .44 Magnum was introduced. In fact, the big comnplaint about those loads were that while they killed, they didn't kill very quickly. Again, penetration at the cost of wound channel size. Your pick. E

Come on, Dick, you know good and well that if Elmer were alive today he would be using a .500 Linebaugh stuffed full of WLN bullets.

That's what I was thinkin'. Elmer Keith pushed the envelope based on the tools available. If he were alive today he would be doing the same thing - instead of blowing up S&W's and Rugers he would be blowing up Linebaughs and Bowens.

You need to re-read JJ I think. With all due respect to JJ and his experiences, but they do not trump and make null and void others experience that is different than his. Again with all due respect to JJ, but he once dressed me down about the TSX bullets on game before he tried them and now he thinks that they are best avialable. People that use a proper hard cast know that they work extremely well, those that do not use them may continue to not use them and their experience is gained vacariouly through some one else


This ia picture with a 41 mag cartridge for size comparison of a wound channel inflicted by a rifle and the bullet is a SWC with a very wide meplat an excellent bullet IMHO and experience








IMHO the meplat on this bullet is wider than the"Keith" bullet. I think that the definition of a "Keith Style" SWC has been dilluted over time