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I haven't said this before but I'm not necessarily a "birther". What I am is intelligent enough to recognize questionable circumstances no one in government is willing to reconcile. And I have an extreme distrust for a federal government whose primary objective for decades now has been self perpetuation.


“When Tyranny becomes Law, Rebellion becomes Duty”

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"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."

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Since no one has apparently researched this, here's a link to the non-difference-that-matters between a Certificate of Live Birth and a Birth Certificate.

There are other sources if you wish to do your own research;

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_a_cert...e_thing_as_a_birth_certificate_in_Hawaii

Last edited by Gene L; 04/15/10.

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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104044

BORN IN THE USA?
Pentagon orders soldier fired for challenging prez
Army warrior terminated from job after questioning Obama eligibility

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 15, 2009
3:08 pm Eastern


By Chelsea Schilling and Joe Kovacs
� 2009 WorldNetDaily

The Department of Defense has allegedly compelled a private employer to fire a U.S. Army Reserve major from his civilian job after he had his military deployment orders revoked for arguing he should not be required to serve under a president who has not proven his eligibility for office.

According to the CEO of Simtech Inc., a private company contracted by the Defense Security Services, an agency of the Department of Defense, the federal government has compelled the termination of Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook.

Cook's attorney, Orly Taitz, wrote in her blog that Simtech CEO Larry Grice said he would try to find another position within the company for Cook, but nothing is currently available.

The Department of Defense does contracting in the general field of information technology/systems integration, at which Cook, a senior systems engineer and architect, was employed until taking a military leave of absence on July 10 in preparation for his deployment to Afghanistan.

"Grice told plaintiff, in essence, that the situation had become 'nutty and crazy,' and that plaintiff would no longer be able to work at his old position," Taitz wrote.

Grice made clear that it was Defense Security Services that had compelled Simtech to fire Cook, Taitz wrote.

According to the report, Grice told Cook "there was some gossip that 'people were disappointed in' the plaintiff because they thought he was manipulating his deployment orders to create a platform for political purposes."

The Simtech CEO then discussed Cook's expectation of final paychecks, without any severance pay, and wished the soldier well.

Messages left with Grice's office had not been returned at the time of this report.

"A federal agency (such as the Department of Defense, acting through the Defense Security Services Agency) clearly violates the Whistleblower Protection Act if it takes or fails to take (or threatens to take or fail to take) a personnel action with respect to any employee or applicant because of any disclosure of information by the employee or applicant that he or she reasonably believes evidences a violation of a law, rule or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety," Taitz wrote.

"What has happened in the present case of Stefan Frederick Cook is that a federal agency appears to have taken action against Stefan Frederick Cook's private employer, Simtech, Inc., which is a closely held corporation owned and operated by members of a single family, who are as much victims of the Department of Defense's heavy-handed interference with plaintiff Cook's private-sector employment as is plaintiff Cook himself."

As WND reported, Taitz confirmed to WND the military rescinded Maj. Cook's impending deployment orders.

"We won! We won before we even arrived," she said with excitement. "It means that the military has nothing to show for Obama. It means that the military has directly responded by saying Obama is illegitimate � and they cannot fight it. Therefore, they are revoking the order!"

She continued, "They just said, 'Order revoked.' No explanation. No reasons � just revoked."

A hearing on the questions raised by Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook, an engineer who told WND he wants to serve his country in Afghanistan, is still scheduled for July 16 at 9:30 a.m.

Join the petition campaign to make President Obama reveal his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate!

"As an officer in the armed forces of the United States, it is [my] duty to gain clarification on any order we may believe illegal. With that said, if President Obama is found not to be a 'natural-born citizen,' he is not eligible to be commander-in-chief," he told WND only hours after his case was originally filed.

"[Then] any order coming out of the presidency or his chain of command is illegal. Should I deploy, I would essentially be following an illegal [order]. If I happened to be captured by the enemy in a foreign land, I would not be privy to the Geneva Convention protections," he said.

The order for the hearing in the federal court for the Middle District of Georgia from U.S. District Judge Clay D. Land said the hearing on the request for a temporary restraining order would be held Thursday.

Want to turn up the pressure to learn the facts? Get your signs and postcards asking for the president's birth certificate documentation here.

Cook said without a legitimate president as commander-in-chief, members of the U.S. military in overseas actions could be determined to be "war criminals and subject to prosecution."

He said the vast array of information about Obama that is not available to the public confirms to him "something is amiss."

"That and the fact the individual who is occupying the White House has not been entirely truthful with anybody," he said. "Every time anyone has made an inquiry, it has been either cast aside, it has been maligned, it has been laughed at or just dismissed summarily without further investigation.

"You know what. It would be so simple to solve. Just produce the long-form document, certificate of live birth," he said.

Cook said he was scheduled to report for duty today to deploy to Afghanistan as part of President Obama's plan to increase pressure of insurgent forces there.

He told WND he would be prepared for a backlash against him as a military officer, since members of the military swear to uphold and follow their orders. However, he noted that following an illegal order would be just as bad as failing to follow a legal order.

Just before news of the orders being revoked were reported, MSNBC anchor Keith Olbermann called Cook a "jackass" and Taitz a "conwoman," as he labeled both of them the "worst persons in the world." He flayed the soldier as "an embarrassment to all those who have served without cowardice."

Named as defendants in the case are Col. Wanda Good, Col. Thomas Macdonald, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Obama, described as "de facto president of the United States."

According to the court filing, Cook affirmed when he joined the military, he took the following oath: "I, Stefan Frederick Cook, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

However, he later took the following officer oath: "I, Stefan Frederick Cook, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of Major do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

According to the claim, "Plaintiff submits that it is implicit though not expressly stated that an officer is and should be subject to court-martial, because he will be derelict in the performance of his duties, if he does not inquire as to the lawfulness, the legality, the legitimacy of the orders which he has received, whether those orders are specific or general."

The military courts offer no option for raising the question, so he turned to civilian courts to consider "a question of paramount constitutional and legal importance: the validity of the chain of command under a president whose election, eligibility, and constitutional status appear open to serious question."

"Barack Hussein Obama, in order to prove his constitutional eligibility to serve as president, basically needs only produce a single unique historical document for the Plaintiff�s inspection and authentication: namely, the 'long-form' birth certificate which will confirm whether Barack Hussein Obama was in fact born to parents who were both citizens of the United States in Honolulu, Hawaii, in or about 1961," explains the complaint.

Taitz said she will attend the hearing to amend the temporary restraining order to an injunction because more members of the military have joined the cause.

"We are going to be asking for release of Obama's records because now this completely undermines the military. It revoked this order, but it can come up with another order tomorrow. It can come up with orders for other people," she said. "Am I going to be flying around the country 1,000 times and paying the fees every time they issue an order?"

Defendant Col. Wanda Good filed a motion to dismiss the plaintiff's action for a temporary restraining order "for lack of jurisdiction" today.

"This case no longer presents a live case or controversy, nor does Major Cook have standing to pursue his claim," it states, "therefore, the Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction over his claims and they should be dismissed."

It continued, "The Commanding General of SOCCENT has determined that he does not want the services of Major Cook, and has revoked his deployment orders. .. Without mobilization orders, Major Cook lacks standing to pursue his claims."

But Taitz said the issue "must be resolved immediately," and she will continue working to ensure Obama proves he is eligible for office.

"We're going to be asking the judge to issue an order for Obama to provide his vital records to show he is legitimately president," she said. "We're going to say, we have orders every day, and we'll have revocations every day. This issue has to be decided."

She said there cannot be any harm to the president if he is legitimately holding office.

"If he is legitimate, then his vital records will prove it," Taitz said. "If he is illegitimate, then he should not have been there in the first place."

Asked what this decision means for every other serviceman who objects to deployment under a president who has not proven he is eligible for office, Taitz responded:

"Now, we can have each and every member of the military � each and every enlistee and officer � file something similar saying 'I will not take orders until Obama is legitimately vetted.'"

Multiple questions have been raised about what that would mean to the 2008 election, to the orders and laws Obama has signed and other issues, including whether he then is a valid commander-in-chief of the military.

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Now Jason, you're just being a plain ole trouble maker grin


“When Tyranny becomes Law, Rebellion becomes Duty”

Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version)
"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
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Originally Posted by isaac
One has to ask, "What level of proof would be accepted by all those who question?"
=============

Easy....the actual birth certificate. How do you address/respond to the 1981 passport travel to Pakistan question,Gene?

I think comparing it to 9-11 conspiracy theroies is rather foolish seeing that all that evidence had been looked at ad nauseum leading up to that investigation and report.

In this particular matter, no one has seen the actual, birth certificate. So, glaring differences exist subject to debate,for sure, but easily resolved,as well.

You've had to provide your original birth certificate for certain things in your life and you and I are nobodies. What's absurd about requesting a president to produce his/hers?


Holy crap, I agree with you again. This has got to stop! grin


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For an army to work orders have to be orders. The current concept is that only lawful order are orders. However, claiming that BHO isn't qualified to give the order so you don't have to obey it is like refusing an order from a lieutenant because you think he cheated on a final exam in ROTC. There are plenty of smart ways to appose BHO instead of stupid ones like refusing military orders.

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This is can all be easily put into context with what is required of you as a juror in a criminal trial.....

The catch phrase here is "beyond reasonable doubt".

Is Obama a Natural Born Citizen, yes or no? With that, is he a Natural Born Citizen "beyond reasonable doubt"?


The answer is NO and if it isn't, you sure as hell shouldn't be sitting on a jury.



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Originally Posted by husqvarna
For an army to work orders have to be orders. The current concept is that only lawful order are orders. However, claiming that BHO isn't qualified to give the order so you don't have to obey it is like refusing an order from a lieutenant because you think he cheated on a final exam in ROTC. There are plenty of smart ways to appose BHO instead of stupid ones like refusing military orders.


You're right. Unfortunately, seems like lots of people are determined to prove sterotypes about their intelligence.

The "beyond a reasonable doubt" has pretty much been proved with the announcement in the paper at BO's birth and the Certificate of Live birth. If anyone doesn't believe these rather compelling pieces of information, then you'd be interested in purchasing my interview with the UFO alien living in my backyard.\

It's only $10. PM me for delivery.


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You're too easy,Gene. I'll bet the illegal immigrants sure loved it when you were the one questioning their legal status.

Sorry you're having difficulties with the concept of two very different documents and evidentiary burdens of proof but now you at least have a bit of understanding of how defense lawyers were able to obtain not guilties with some of your cases.


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Probably the lawyers weren't of your quality. In my years as a cop, I lost only one case, in fact. And what law school teaches the necessity of proof of innocence rather than proof of guilt?

Are you interested in my interview with the space alien?


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This isn't evidence of proof or guilt,you should know that. It's simply verification, you know...like documents produced via a subpoena.

And, if you had more than 50 jury or bench trials and you try to suggest you only lost one, then the interview should occur because it had to have happened somewhere out in space. It sure didn't happen in a courtroom or,if it did, you have a most self -serving definition of lost in your memory banks.


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That is, in fact, what I'm not only suggesting, but insisting.

I worked mostly drugs where the evidence of guilt was overwhelming and legally obtained. It's rare (or was then) to lose a drug case. Don't see how anyone can...it's direct evidence.

The case I lost was before a jury, and the doper was a student whom the jury just didn't want to convict.

Lots of cases settled out of court of course. But no, lost only one. If you're winning drug cases you're one hotshot lawyer, or the LE officers are pisspoor.

And no, mostly they were NOT jury or bench cases as the evidence was so overwhelming as to make such kinda uselss...like proving Obama is a US citizen. If you go back and re-read my post, I didn't say "trials," I said "cases."

Last edited by Gene L; 04/15/10.

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Gee Gene that's all great for your bio and all but how about a response to the issue at hand? You know, you thinking it was a guilt or innocence question and my comment it's simply a verification,production of documents issue.

There's more verification with chain of custody docs and lab analysis' with your 100% win cases(save 1)than Bam-Bam has had to produce to be Prez! Go figure them apples!

Did the live birth announcement newspaper clippings the illegals gave you during or after drug busts settle their immigration status in your mind?

A jury nullified you and your evidence,huh? Ouchie!! Did you say something about interviewing space aliens when cross examined as to your informant?


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Your unimpressive reading skills undermine your qualifications to comment on evidence. Or are you a judge as well as a lawyer?

You sound like a kid... "Oh yeah? Well, that might be SO, but..." and go off on a tangent. Looks like I now know TWO space cadets.


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Well I can tell you guys one thing or maybe even two; try getting a passport or Social Security with a certificate of live birth and see how far you get.


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HUH?? What the Hell are you talking about,Gene? You dabbling in the sparkling cider tonight,bud? Try and stay focused.

I hope that didn't sound like one of your prosecutors!


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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Gene, the proof the birthers have is all circumstantial. His grandmother saying he was born in Kenya. His wife saying in a speech in 2008 that they'd visited Obama's homeland of Kenya. No doctor name or even hospital being provided as to where he was born. Him attending state school in Indonesia when the country only allows citizens of Indonesia to attend state schools. Obama visiting Pakistan on an unknown passport during his college days. Lots of small things, not even sure any more which ones are even true.

And, as I understand it, Hawaii at the time of his birth would issue a certificate of live birth for babies born elsewhere. And anybody could put the notice in the paper.

I don't think there's anything to it.. but I'd like to see it resolved. I don't think it's anything but reasonable for the American people to ask the POTUS to prove citizenship by providing the original birth certificate and whatever else is necessary. Shouldn't even be able to run without being vetted.
That pretty well sums up my view on the matter, as well.

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Good luck with this one as our courts seem to think that a citizen of the US has no standing in court to question the legitamacy of someone who is elected to office but has offered no proof of his legitamacy and in fact has hid lots of details of his past,.hmmm to me primafacia evidence and gosh I am not even a lawyer or legal scolar. Our legal and political system has certainly taken a turn away from common sense. Ocman's razor and all that stuff that worked for many year. Remember reading about the old west circuit court judges who carried one or two law books with them as they made their rounds. I wonder how they would rule on this case.. lol

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Originally Posted by derby_dude
Well I can tell you guys one thing or maybe even two; try getting a passport or Social Security with a certificate of live birth and see how far you get.


My certificate is a "certificate of birth." No problems getting a SSN or a passport. Don't know how this differs from a Certificate of Live Birth" except I was born alive. And according to the link, it doesn't matter in Hawaii, either.

It was a plot, back in 1945. The certifying official apparently thought I was going to be president some day. So he issued this certificate, which does NOT say "Birth Certificate." Says "Certificate of Birth."

Legal minds are aboggle.


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Gene as I said in the other thread, my daughter was born in the U.K. Her birth certificate was issued by the local British government. Shortly after her birth we sent the paperwork to the American Embassy in London, in return we recieved an American "Certificate of Birth". Anytime she's had show proof of birth they require her British birth certificate, not her "Certificate of Birth".

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