Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 454 Cassull performance edge ?

I have but nothing more than whitetails. I would have to say that it matters on heavy thick skinned animals. That is just an opinion because I have never hunted anything that tough.

Energy does not transfer in an inelastic collision it is transformed into other forms of energy, mostly thermal, some sound, etc. The faster the more momentum that is transfered is true. The wound channel is created by the amount of direct applied pressure, the amount of momentum transfered and the amount of hydraulic pressure.

FPE is not a good indicator of terminal performance. My 338 Lapua shoots a 300 grain SMK at 2800 FPS and that is 5222 FPE. a 458 shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2100 FPS is 4896 FPE, ther is no way that the 338 Lapua with a 300 grain SMK is equql to the 458 for Elephant, much less better despite the FPE advantage

The ballistics pendelum was used to calculate velocity before the electric chrongraphs. The pendelum was shot and the swing distance of the pendelum was measured. This measurement gave the amount of momentum transfered. With the amount of momentum transfer known, velocity could then be calculated

I believe the wound channel is the most significant factor when hunting with big bore bullets since they move considerably slower.

THis is because of the afore mentioned "weak sister" revolvers out there. In a FA or RRH or RSRH, a 45 Colt can be loaded to 50k psi; or, rather these revolvers can contain that pressure and the FA more of course. The Colt case is not weaker or an inherent weak case as has oft been written. It is as strong as the Casull case and thus can contain the same pressures. That said, I see no reason to go above 30k psi loads (say a 300-grain bullet at 1250-1300 fps) with the 45 Colt in even the FA or the two Ruger double action guns.

edited to add: The energy formula commonly used (energy is the product) squares velocity so any bullet with higher or high velocity can be shown to be superior to the same bullet at a lower speed in terms of kinetic energy but we all know this does not translate perfectly with the terminal result of a bullet or its "killing power". Or in other terms, a fast but light bullet can be shown to be superior in terms of energy than a big, heavy, slower bullet. But all things being equal we know how that works out at the critter-not so much.

Energy = Velocity(squared) x (bullet weight in grains) all divided by 450,240.

The wound channel is indeed all that matters. I have shot the 325 grain Buffalo Bore 325 grain hard cast bullet completely through 1000 pound Bison (exits). I have seen 800 to 1000 pound Bison hit the ground with in seconds of being hit with a 45 Colt with 335 grain WLFN and the 325 LFN from Cast performance Bullets.

If you had said that kinetic energy is not the only useful indicator of killing ability instead of saying that it's useless, you would be correct. No one really believes that the combination of velocity and bullet mass is of no consequence. If they did, a .44 special would suffice for all our hunting needs and there would be no such things as .44 magnums, .454 Causulls, etc.

Bullet velocity and mass is of consequence and I have not stated other wise. The uesless number is FPE. In an inelastic colission it is transformed into mostly termal energy. As with the balistics pendelum FPE is not what is transfered and measured it is momentum and mometum is a product of mass and velocity

Well, you are right, energy is conserved, not transferred as is momentum. Kinetic energy conveys the ability to do work -that is the application of force across a distance (or penetration) which I know you will agree is important.

But what do inelastic collisions have to do with hunting?

A bullet strike is an inelastic collision

True only if the bullet does not fully penetrate and exit, which is what I thought you always want - ???

It is still an inelastic collision, just not a perfect inelastic collision

You may have a point there, but in a true inelastic collision both energy and momentum are conserved. Kinetic energy is not conserved, but total energy is. As I said, when kinetic energy is converted to thermal energy work is done, that that work translates to distance, whether it is a bullet moving some distance into the object it strikes or a pendulum moving across its path.

It almost seems like you think that momentum is a more useful term to describe the work that a bullet can do because it can be measured, but like kinetic energy it is a calculated term. You can use a pendulum to calculate either one. They are both functions of mass and velocity.

When an object at rest is struck by another object, that is in motion, it is the transfer of momentum that starts the motion of movement of the object at rest. An object has to be in motion to have energy. FPE is not a usefull term to rank letahality of a cartridge.

Momentum is what the pendelum measures. Energy goes into sound, thermal, etc

The Space Program is certainly going to miss all you rocket scientists...............

End point analysis is good to show type of change, it doesn"t define it.

A pin at the speed of light or a flat screen tv at 7 MPH?

Some one would ask what size flat screen or who made it.........

Someones signature "In theory, theory and practice are the same, in practice, the AREN'T.

Don't beleive it? Why do they prototype.

Theory: more and more velocity kills better!! Better??

Velocity HELPS on longer shots.(that end point thing)

I haven't seen him in 10 years or so but his count then was over 200 head of big gane with a Colt 45, 7 1/2 inch barrel, loaded a little warm. Thats fact.

'Nother fact, nother guy:Eighty some elephants, and over 160 of the big 5. Opened up a 378 Weatherby for 458 to see what it would do. Didn't kill any better so went back he tried other things. Some guy named Roy Weatherby thought it was a good idea so he followd suit.

Guy I know carried a "Hunters Knife" 8+ inches.Took his friend the city feller deer hunting, show him how its done. City guy loved it. He was going to show the city guy what to do when the deer is dead. City said he would do it. Poor city guy only had a knife about a inch long. Big hunter doesn't laugh, just knew it would take a while.

20 minutes tops. Neat, clean, completey unbuilt, and stacked neatly, and all cleaned up.

"You done this before!"

Nope. First time.

What do you do in the big city?

Surgeon. My friend smiled and looked for a smaller knife.

Point?

You can sink with the ship or build a raft from the wreckage.TEL

Learn if someone is willing to teach. Not everyone is.

End of rant..............

IMO there is no real benefit to the extra recoil for the game you are after,and if you "trust them" there is no reason for you to change

I have the difinitive answer on this. it takes a F/A .454 to kill a big deer. how do i know this? The day before i got this dude, i set in the same stand with my sbh hunter in 45lc and did not kill a big deer.

if you like big recoil and plan to hunt stuff that kills back, with a revolver go 454. if you are going to hunt anything that walks north america, keep what you got. if you want a 454 go get one, hell i will make you a good deal on one. it only has 3000-4000 rounds down the tube. being recoil sensitive i have gravitated twords the 45lc.

remember, whatever you chose. shoot the piss out of it and when the oppertunity presents itself you will be ready.

And if you believe that animals are killed by being knocked down so hard that the impact to the ground is what kills them, then I guess I can see why that statement would be important. When I hear people talk about knockdown power, I wonder if they think that's true.

A 300 grn slug traveling at 1000 fps carries about 42 ft-lb of momentum, the same as a football moving at 50 ft/sec. But, now I'm making the same silly argument involving greatly different types of projectiles to show that momentum is a useless term, which it is not.

Now, to real life. When a bullet strikes an animal, its kinetic energy will be used to perform work, which is force times distance. Force = mass X acceleration. So when a bullet expands quickly its negative acceleration is much higher, i.e. it slows down at a higher rate. It doesn't penetrate more, but its energy is not wasted. The expansion causes great tissue damage, and that's what kills animals.

A hard cast bullet uses its energy to penetrate farther at the expense of expansion, and it damages tissue too, just not in the same way.

And that's how kinetic energy can be used to put into numbers the age old argument about penetration vs. expansion.

Horse pucky. It doesn't take a .454 to kill big deer. Of course the .45 Colt will fail if loaded incorrectly -- so will the .454, etc. Now, the most important issue. How was the .45 Colt loaded that it failed? Hand load? Factory load? Type of bullet? Bullet weight? Lots of factors here that contribute to its performance. Lots of big game have been taken with lesser cartridges than the Casull. There is no animal on earth that a poperly loaded .45 Colt cannot handle.

But, you stated that you didn't kill a deer out of that stand -- maybe you have to actually shoot one to kill one.

I have owned a couple Casulls and while I enjoyed shooting and hunting with them, I feel that for the added recoil, might as well step up to a .475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh, etc.

I did not state anything at all about a bullet knocking an animal down, now did I?


I suggest a copy of this book it will answer all of your question and you will understand it much better than I can explain it





A copy can be found here; http://www.amazon.com/Bullet-Penetration-Modeling-Incapacitation-Resulting/dp/0964357704