Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa DGR - No Good American Rifles/Cartridge? According to "Rifa", that's right.

CZ 550, but only if you are shaped right to fit their stock. Good solid arm.

Interesting thread. Personally, I would recommend the Model 70. 30 years of exclusive use of this action gives me no cause for hesitation. I think it has the best adjustable factory tigger available, the bolt is extremely easy to field strip, and I love the way the safety is designed and works. With some trigger and bedding work, I have found accuaracy to be "more" than acceptable and usually outstanding for a factory gun.

JJHACK, concerning the safety, I have developed a habit of shooting with a grip that places my thumb along side the grip, rather that over it. I find this eliminates getting my thumb jambed into my nose during heavy recoil. It also allows my trigger finger to pull the trigger staight back as opposed to pulling up at an angle, and places my thumb directly behind the safety. Simply moving my hand forward pushes my thumb into the safety and moves it to the off position. My hand does not change its position and pulling it backwards places it in correctly on the grip again. It feels completely natural, altho that could be the result of years spent doing it this way.

I know that some folks feel that the safety is OK on the mod 70 and it is for all sport hunting. It's just that for a DGR its not quite right, and if you had to go through the exams with one you would see after shooting a few test rounds that it should be on the other side to be faster and make the gun "just right". It's a very small complaint and I am still very fast with it as it is. Obviously I passed the exams with my 375HH so It must be at least adequate. It is difficult to get through some of the exercises with any gun made. The time is so short and the government officials breathing down your neck with stop watch in hand. Everything seems easy after going through that nightmare of a pass fail shooting course like this.

Just as an example. One series of 3 targets is set at 30 meters 20 meters and 10 meters. The center one is about 10 yards to the right or left of the other two(random) you have ten seconds to put a bullet into each 4" square target. You start with the gun at your side safety on and the Instructor/ judge says "GO" you have to raise the gun take of the safety and put a hole in all 3 of those 4" black squares. During practice I was doing it nearly every time. On my first test round I did all three. However the judge who walks down to inspect only gave me credit for one. The edge of the black where it meets the white was broken on two of them . He said they did not count when "on the line" the holes had to be completely inside the black, without breaking the edge!!

Don't bother with trying a debate him, it ain't America! The margin for error is so slim that even an issue with the position of the safety could be the difference on this kind of test. Add to this the group of people watching you and it's quite nerve wracking to say the least. With this kind of testing done over and over for a long time every day. You begin to see what guns are failing to feed and eject or have other issues. Operator error may be the main reason but the CRF designs take much of the human eror out of the picture. The PF VS CRF, is debated by anyone who cares. However after going through the PH academy and seeing these things day in and day out is very convincing of what works and what does not.

Is there a website around that lists the shooting tests and minimum qualifications that are required to qualify for a Professional Hunter's license? Are the standards different between countries? Do you have to recertify from time to time or is it a one time deal?

JJ
Is the three target firing test done with open sights or scope?

I am also wondering how the double rifles do in this text?

I have seen multi-rapid fire moving target shotgun competitions where the over/under guys do about as well as the autoloaders.

JJHACK,

Thanks for the insights.

Live well

Whether the M70 safety is right or not quite right depends on prior training too. For example if you trained under Jeff Cooper you would have your strong-side (trigger finger side) thumb alongside the stock as part of your grip.

There are some European makers who build Mauser M98 pattern big game rifles with the M70 style safety and your choice of which side of the action it is on to keep us all happy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim

To JJHack,
I've always enjoyed reading what you have to say about rifles. It's informative and your experience lends great credibility to the things you say. However in this case I have to point out that my own experiences have been so very different from your own.

I've used Browning A bolts since they first came out. I've hunted every corner of British Columbia and spent a lot of time in the bush. Not only have they been the most accurate rifles that I've ever owned (out-of-the-box) compared to the Weatherby's, Remington's, Winchester's, Marlin's that I've owned. They have never failed me in anyway at any time while hunting.

While holding my Browning's, I have fallen in rivers, smashed into rocks, slid down the talus slopes, fallen out of trees and slipped off of logs. I've broken a number of scopes, a few slings and even a few bones. But so far I have yet to have a Browning rifle fail me in the field or at the range.

I'm not denying that what you say, based on your own experiences is untrue. But I would like to add that my own experiences vary 180� from your own. I would also like to add that I believe that if the experiences you mention in regards to Browning rifles are the norm - then the word would've gotten out by now, and they would not be the popular sellers that they are now. Hunters have a way of finding these things out based on their own experiences, and most hunters seem to find Browning rifles pretty satisfactory all in all.

Admittedly, I haven't had any African dirt get in my rifle - but I have had my share of British Columbia dirt. I've had temperatures that a varied from the desert heat, the temperatures on the ugly side of 20 below while hunting. I haven't been charged by any Cape buffaloes, but I have been charged by bears. I'm not the most careful man on earth, but it is interesting how two people can come to such opposite conclusions about a rifle based on their own experiences. I just wanted other hunters out there to realize that your own experiences with Browning rifles are hardly what I would call the norm - if they were, Browning wouldn't have as many repeat buyers as it does. I know a lot of people who've bought more than one Browning rifle.

As a former owner of many A Bolt rifles (both the early and later ABolt II versions), I agree with BC Brian's opinions on em. The A Bolt may not be the best candidate for a custom or even a DGR but I never had a single failure hunting big game with em. That included slipping and falling while crossing creeks, rockslides and slippery hillsides. A Bolts are one of the most popular bolt actions being used these days, mostly bought by the average hunter instead of the rifle loonies found on these forums. Every hunting camp in the world has its share of ABolt hunters who come through and successfully harvest game with em. Funny, I don't hear of many if any failures or jamming incidents.

As for the Remingtons not holding up under stressful situations, I should point that military snipers train and do battle with this rifle under some of the most demanding and stressful situations equal to any DGR hunting situation. Just take a good look at our boys in Afghanistan or Iraq, plenty of Rem 700s in action over there, where are the Win 70s or mausers?

MtnHtr

Remember one point of military equipment - low bid wins. Mossberg 590's were/are the official shotgun not Rem 870's.

And, a 308 vs 375 H&H. I'd hazard a guess an action that was perfectly servicable for a 308 might not be so with a 375 H&H under the same conditions.

One other point, those sniper 700's are 700's in name only. They've been reworked with replacement parts out the wazoo.

As for the low bid theory regarding military equipment that is bull$hit. If that were the case our troops would be using imported equipment from China. The Rem 700 has been used for awhile now, its proven itself. I dare you to print this BS over on one of the sniper forums................

And what PH's beloved Win70 is bone stock from the factory with no modifications or tuning?

MtnHtr

MH,
Ask Jack about ABolts when you pick up your moose.

I'm pretty sure he was there as I was beating the bolt of my buddy's 270 open on the top of a ridge in Idaho. A little dirt got in between the bolt body and the bolt head, and she locked up like a bank vault.

After a bit of "persuasion" with a piece of wood, she came loose.

Of course, my buddy still hunts the heck out of that rifle and hasn't had another problem before or since. That said, I've never seen another rifle lock up like that for no apparent reason.

That rifle is without a doubt the most accurate factory rifle I've ever seen though. If I posted some of the groups, people would scream BS!

CAS,

Apparently, "a little dirt" was reason enough! I had pine needles, dirt and ice in mine and never a failure except for rust. This included a 1 month hunt in the Idaho/Wyoming border area every year for 4yrs straight. I meet countless hunters toting em every year in the field and never a complaint! That does not mean the A Bolt is flawless or troublefree but neither is any other factory boltgun that I know of. When I was hunting moose in 03, I even ran into the Browning man who had racked up an impressive grand slam hunting sheep with his A Bolt. He was not a rifle loonie in a sense, just a hunter.

MtnHtr

Jeez, Brian, you must be one tough guy to have survived all of that excitement! I have spent more than 40 years in the most remote parts of B.C., Alberta and even the NWT, without having such mishaps occur. This includes many stints of 3-5.5 months alone on extremely isolated Forest Service fly-in posts, ski-mountaineering in the Kokanee Glacier park, solo climbing-trekking in many of the most rugged parts of our Province and fighting forest fires, running silvicultural projects and so forth.

You are just unlucky or maybe the BEARS love school teachers???? It does seem to me, though, that very little of this tale of derring-do is a real promotion for the A-Bolt as any rifle can and will fail under those circumstances; it's a wonder you have survived !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Guys, let me try and put this Abolt stuff to bed. AS you can imaguine I hunt with lots of guys that bring lots of different guns. I'm just an observer in this commentary stating what I have seen. I have no vested interest in any make or model. I'm not anti Browning. All, I said was based on my expereince I would never own one. It is by a large magin the rifle with the greatest failure rate in the field I have ever seen. From barrel split open, to cracked and sheard off triggers to rusted internals on a stainless steel rifle. Bound up firing pins, trigger guards broken off from recoil. Dounle feed jams, bolts that either will not open or will not close complete.Since 1981 I have been working in the hunting business and in all that time I have never seen a single failure of any type in any condition from a Ruger or a Winchester.

Granted this is just my own experience. Two rifle brands in all these years with ZERO failure or trouble and one brand in particular with an endless string of horrible to catastrophic failure. I'm just Human, and maybe with my engineering background I tend to think extremely logical. When I see both ends of the scale in regards to quality and durablity these three brands come to mind, two at one end and one at the other. Nope,.........it's not scientific but you gotta go with what you see first hand on some things.

To be fair I have seen a lot of guys come through with the A Bolts and never see even a tiny problem. One in particular last year was one of the best shots ever through our camp. Every animal went doen with a single shot even when running. He was an American FBI guy with a lot of Firearm training too.

Nothing personal guys, just observations over many years. I wish you all well with what ever you choose to own.

That "low bidder stuff" is not BS. Remington did underbid Winchester, and regarding stuff made in China, there is another component of the bidding process called OPEVAL (Operational Evaluation) and in that venue, that junk from China or any AK for that matter would fail miserably . There is LOT of work/changes that go into a 700 to make it into a sniper rifle, not least of which is the replacement of the extractor. And there are PLENTY of PHs that use Model 70s with ZERO modifications, except for the odd trigger adjustment, but that is a personal decision based on taste and not performance.

I don't doubt you folks that own Brownings love them, but it still does not alter the fact of the pot-metal trigger guard, rube-goldberg over-complicated bolt assembly, etc.

I gave my father in law a 270 Medallion a few years ago and he loves it. VERY, VERY accurate, but he is constantly having to clean out the bolt face because even a little dirt and the thing fails to eject. It's a very good looking rifle though. jorge

JJHack,

Thanks for the clarification - I have no doubts that what you've observed is true. I guess I've been lucky - or as Kutenay noted - very lucky to have survived my many mishaps! If there's a way too get into a dangerous spot or fall or get hurt - my wife knows - I'll find it. LOL!

I agree with your assesment of the complexity of the Browning design, and the pot metal parts, and the rusting issue. I have no quarrel with your observation that they might be the least durable of the bunch mentioned. It was just that I wanted to point out that they've proven far more durable than my own body. Before I'd worry about breaking any one of my Browning's - I'd want to get my injuries looked at by a doctor, as I think the gun's can take a lot more abuse than we can - most of the time. I've had great luck with Winchester's too - and they do strike me as being more ruggedly designed - not that that has ever been an issue for me.

If I might ask one more question, based on your own experiences - now that you've ranked the rifles on their durability, would you venture an opinion on how they rank (out of the box) for accuracy on average. I'd be interested in your observations. Thanks,

I dare you to post on one of the sniper forums a stock 700 is used by the military snipers. Just like they use stock M-16's and Berettas for the Camp Perry shoots.

Regardless of what you THINK, low bid wins the military contracts provided they meet the specs OR are the highest tested if nothing meets the spec (they get the bulk purchase) in which case supplemental items will be purchased to cover areas of non-compliance/special needs. The wonderful world of Mil-Spec makes for some very high low bids.

Grimel,

Please quote where I stated "stock 700s" are used by military snipers.According to your low bid theory, Remington 700s are used because they are the lowest bidder? So that makes the Rem 700 inferior to the Win 70 for sniper and tactical use? Even if both are highly modified?

So why do most of the law enforcement snipers choose the Rem 700 for their tactical sniper weapons? Is it because they are the low bidders also?

As for the Abolt, alot of hunters have enough faith in em to use em on high priced hunts. And I'm not stating the ABolt is the best choice, just trying to bring some reality to this thread.




MtnHtr

JJ,

Thought you might be interested in this pic a friend recently E mailed me. This gentleman hails from Utah (read Browning country), has worked as an engineer for NASA for the past twenty years. Apparently he was not worried about broken pot metal, jams, rust and the other problems you listed when he took this interior grizzly this past fall in Alaska. He works with and knows metallurgy and design fairly well I might add - its his job!


A Bolt , 300Win Mag

MtnHtr