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1) They try to protect their dealers against cutthroat price cutting with their retail price agreements.
Is it a good thing for us consumers?
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No profit = no dealers and no company importing them.
I look at it this way. If Vortex is offering a solid value in their scopes already at the existing price structures, they should protect their dealer's margins by making them tow the line on pricing.
Last edited by jim62; 05/12/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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[quote=swamphunter]
There are 600 US workers at the Leupold plant who actually build the Redfeilds who no doubt would disagree with the recommendation of a 100% Chinese built scope over their product. that's amazing. Leupold has 600 employees building Redfield scopes. Must have been quite a hiring boom in Oregon.
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ALDO LEOPOLD
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No one here on this thread as defintively specified exactly WHAT about the Vortex Diamondback is "better" than the Redield with any actual head to head comparisons.
well, I didn't compare the Redfield to the Diamondback. I did, however, compare a VX-I 2-7 rimfire scope (new model) that a friend has on his .22 to my Diamondback 2-7 rimfire. Both of us opined that the vortex is brighter and sharper than the Leupold. I sincerely doubt that anyone here on the fire will disagree that the VX-I is a better scope than the Redfield. So in my opinion, the diamondback is a much better scope than the Redfield, and I'm not going to spend another $130 just to verify that. Considering the fact that the Leupold costs $219.99 plus shipping, and the diamondback costs $169.99 shipped, I'd say the diamondback is a heck of a bargain.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Kimber7mmman..
Since you felt the need to critisize, I will ask you this-
Do you have anymore accurate figures than that?
There are 600 plus employees at Leupold.
My point was that by any intellient measure they ALL have a stake in the success of the Redfield line , no matter how many employees of those 600 actually make them...
Last edited by jim62; 05/12/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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You give Vortex credit for marketing but not putting a decent product at fair price into marketplace. Do you think it's a good scope?
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Marc..
I never said they were not fairly priced.
My take on their marketing was a sincere compliment- not a dig.
As far as them being a good scope, they have not been on the market long enough to actually tell if both the scopes or their guarantee will hold up.
We shall see.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Sorry, took it as dig. We shall see how they hold up. My Viper sets on Faux TI 280. It will have a "patina" of use by December.
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jim, I'm not criticizing - just wondering if it is up to us to keep all 600 plus employees of Leupold gainfully employed? I have no idea of how many people they employ, whether full time with benefits or part time with no benefits ("ala" Wal-Mart/Sam's Club), or even if they offer benefits, or what their policies are. Did they hire additional employees when they bought the Redfield line? Did they just bring on the existing Redfield employees? Or did they just add the brand and thus, save some of the Leupold employees from being laid off? Or do just the "former Redfield" employees have a "stake" in this, since the "Leupold" employees are protected because we will still buy Leupold scopes even if the Redfield line fails? FWIW I own a grand total of 12 scopes. Care to know what they are? 10 Leupolds  1 Zeiss Conquest 4x - very good scope and the Vortex Diamondback - better than the Redfield IMO.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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jim, I'm not criticizing - just wondering if it is up to us to keep all 600 plus employees of Leupold gainfully employed? I have no idea of how many people they employ, whether full time with benefits or part time with no benefits ("ala" Wal-Mart/Sam's Club), or even if they offer benefits, or what their policies are. Did they hire additional employees when they bought the Redfield line? Did they just bring on the existing Redfield employees? Or did they just add the brand and thus, save some of the Leupold employees from being laid off? Or do just the "former Redfield" employees have a "stake" in this, since the "Leupold" employees are protected because we will still buy Leupold scopes even if the Redfield line fails? FWIW I own a grand total of 12 scopes. Care to know what they are? 10 Leupolds 1 Zeiss Conquest 4x - very good scope and the Vortex Diamondback - better than the Redfield IMO. You seem to be talking in circles. By your own admission you have NOT compared the Diamondback directly with a Redfield.. Which was the point of the other comments I made.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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No jim, I'm not the one who brought up the Campfire's apparent need to keep the apparently 600 plus employees of Leupold employed by buying a Redfield scope instead of a Vortex. I responded to the OP by stating that: I'd vote for the Vortex. Picked up a Diamondback 2-7x35 myself, and am very pleased with it. My opinion is that the optics on the Diamondback are superior to the optics in the Redfield... I've yet to see your substantive review of either a Redfield or Vortex scope that you actually own and use. Why is that when you are making comments about me not comparing the Diamondback directly to a Redfield? You asked: "Is the Diamondback REALLY a $50 better scope than the Redifeild 2-7?" I'll ask you: Is the Leupold VXI 2-7 rimfire scope a better scope than the Redfield 2-7? If it is, then in my opinion, the Diamondback is a much better scope than the Redfield 2-7.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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And I will say to you-
I was not the one on this thread slamming the new Redfeilds based on the opinion floated by a Vortex dealer.-
You were.
I was correct about that and nothing you have posted since then refutes it.
You claim to have compared it a Diamondback to a Leupold VX1. You claim the Leupold VX1s to be defacto superior optically to a Redfield.
The fact is I have never heard of ONE person who has looked through them who honestly has claimed there is any real difference in overall optical quality between the Leupold VX1/Riflemans and the new Redfield scopes.
If you are claiming the VX1 scopes to be truly superior to the Rifleman or the Redfields optically you would be the first to do so.
You would also be the first to do so without ever comparing them side by side.
Last edited by jim62; 05/12/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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"Boy, that free market sure is a b!tch. Capitalism used to be a foundation of the American Way. When we get outdone by the competition, I guess we're supposed to settle for Patriotism.
FC
"
Yep and so is a dose of common sense. Rather than acting like a lemming jumping off a cliff.
That's my whole point..
There is no proof on this thread that the "competition" has outdone anyone here.
Nobody has shown me any proof on this thread that the Vortex Diamondback is REALLY any "better" than any equivlent Redfeild model.
A lot of vague, anecdotal talk and apples to oranges comparions but nothing solid.
The "proof" being offered is that the posters have voted with their dollars. Please feel free to vote with yours as you see fit, but don't take it personally if others don't. FC
"Every day is a holiday, and every meal is a banquet."
- Mrs. FC
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So saying a scope is optically superior to another scope is "slamming" it? Geez...
So you and everybody you know say a $220 Leupold VX-I 2-7 rimfire scope is the same, optically, as the new $130 Redfield 2-7?
If they are indeed optically the same, then my comparison of the Vortex Diamondback to the VX-I would then be entirely relevant, as I personally compared the Diamondback and the VX-I and found the Diamondback to be brighter with better contrast and resolution.
And again, in my opinion, the Vortex is a better scope, and is worth $40 more than the Redfield and is a steal at $50 less than the Leupold.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Swamphunter, sorry for the hijack. If it were me, I'd buy the vortex diamondback 4-12 instead of the Redfield. But that's just me, I stuck my vortex on a made in the USA Kimber rifle...
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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"Boy, that free market sure is a b!tch. Capitalism used to be a foundation of the American Way. When we get outdone by the competition, I guess we're supposed to settle for Patriotism.
FC
"
Yep and so is a dose of common sense. Rather than acting like a lemming jumping off a cliff.
That's my whole point..
There is no proof on this thread that the "competition" has outdone anyone here.
Nobody has shown me any proof on this thread that the Vortex Diamondback is REALLY any "better" than any equivlent Redfeild model.
A lot of vague, anecdotal talk and apples to oranges comparions but nothing solid.
The "proof" being offered is that the posters have voted with their dollars. Please feel free to vote with yours as you see fit, but don't take it personally if others don't. FC Thats' fine, they can buy/own whatever they want. But, If you own ONLY the Vortex , does THAT automatically make you an authority on the new Redfields even if you have never even looked though one??
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Went out and shot 2 rifles at the range Tuesday, with the Vortex Diamondback 3 X 9 & the New Redfield 2 X 7. IMHO the Vortex is a lot more scope than the Redfield. Far more than the price difference.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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KK,
More "apples to oranges"-
A 3-9 Diamondback compared to a Redfield 2-7 with a smaller objective.
That aside..
Plese be more specific about what exactly is "better" about the Vortex.
At about 50% more cost, I would sincerely like to know just what makes it so much better.
Beyond it's higher magnification or larger objective, of course.
Last edited by jim62; 05/13/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Jim, the link in COelkhunters post above is a true apples to apples comparison done by a man who knows better than most what he's doing with regards to optics.
The thing about that test that concerns me is the mushy feeling of the adjustments on the Redfield.
That whole test is a good test and seems to be fair and balanced.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
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