|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 436
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 436 |
It is a wonder any hunters survive in western and northern Canada without pistols.  I wonder how they do it.  Bruce old willie and ole joe can tell you they re using a 30/30 rifle in the polar bear areas. i myself use a 300 Savage and never feel undergunned. maybe the new 375 ruger is a new option .... the natives are using 303 and 7 mm remington mag so im in between ....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755 |
does anyone actually know how thick a bear skull is at the 4" circular window of opportunity?
Might have to test this with these guns...maybe using steel. Looks like avg bone density is 1500 kg/m3 and steel is around 8000 kg/m3 so about 5.3x more dense.
an inch of skull would = .18" of steel that doesn't seem right I doubt much of anything could get through that steel. So either my math is off or the skull thickness is less than an inch. Don't know about skull thickness. Do know about steel penetration however. My uncle was a gun master and tested a bunch of rifles on 1 inch steel plate. On a very hard target velocity becomes the determining factor of penetration followed in a distant 2nd place by the area of the projectile. WW!! confirmed this. The Germans did pretty good work with the high velocity 88, putting holes in Allied Tanks to 1500 meters. The American Sherman low velocity 75 in the mean time was scratching German paint. The 75 was better than the smaller low velocity rounds though. Bone probably falls between flesh annd steel in hardness and doesn't require the same properties that either steel or flesh has in regards to penetration. I don't think that steel plate is a good indicator of effectiveness. I've shot steel plate with several calibers (the plates were not 1" thick). The steel plate was only dented with a .270 and a 30-06 but a .22-250 blew a hole through the plate. In spite of this, I would rather use the 30-06 for bear than any .22 centerfire.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
If I was going back to AK for a visit sometime, I'd carry my 357 with some high velocity 125 grainers.
I've heard they are most useful for stopping the real "bears"--nasty tourists who hate hunter/fishers.
Why worry about 1 in a million bear charges, when the odds of other things are so much higher?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,448
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,448 |
Why worry about 1 in a million bear charges, when the odds of other things are so much higher? I wear a seat belt when driving, lock the doors to my house, and carry a heavy handgun in the woods. No reason not to take precautions. 454 vs bear from Nitroexpress.com- http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=143596&an=0&page=0#Post143596
Last edited by 86thecat; 05/01/10.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162 |
If you're limiting your choice to a 357 or nothing, you're infinitely better off packing bear spray. The latter has a high-percentage chance of canceling the "rage factor," while the former is very likely to increase it.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,810
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,810 |
Some food for thought.
Do any of the mentioned pistol cartridges have as much ME as the by today's standards lowly .30-30W? Which I doubt would be ones first choice for a bear stopper.
I didn't look them all up, but the ones I did fall far short. The .357 isn't even close. Just to keep things in perspective.
Last edited by battue; 05/01/10.
laissez les bons temps rouler
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,359
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,359 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,448
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,448 |
454 is about the same ME.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
While I prefer a light 30-30 carbine on the low end of the defensive long guns, I know a good bullet in even a 44 mag or strong 45 Colt will outpenetrate and outbreak bones.
Just as the 17 Remington is better than the 45-70 when shooting holes in steel, a stout, heavy, if slow revolver caliber may be "outgunned" by the lightweight rifles. That doesn't prove anything in terms of on-critter performance. Shooting steel or water jugs is not a good measure of what a bullet will do when contacting fur, flesh and bone.
I will gladly take a 30-30 over a shotgun with ordinary slugs or buckshot.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 237
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 237 |
Since the N-frame smiths are to big for my hands to get proper trigger position for double action shooting I use a L-frame smith with hardcast buffalo bore or Corbon hardcast 200 or 180gr. Hope never have to test the theory but believe it will penatrate to the spine/shoulder bones and do the job. Have been charged twice and almost lost last one. Rifle jammed and bear was 4ft away, luckily had hit it in shoulder and it couldn't get over the creek bank with 3 legs. At time had a 9mm on hip and considered using it but cleared rifle instead, sold 9mm next day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 767
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 767 |
I've read a couple of posts now that say a 12 guage slug isn't good protection....can someone explain why to me? Just thinking about it it seems like a big heavy slow moving slug would be a good stopper. I can't figure out why not, so hopefully someone will chime in and help educate me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822 |
RC, Foster type slugs (hollow-base) are not good. They have a thin skirt, are soft lead to conform to even heavily choked shotguns, and are not very accurate. Brenneke's ARE good. The are like a giant, stabilzed wadcutter travelling at 1200fps or so. In my experience, they WAY over-penetrate! Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
Now, JWP, you've forgotten a few details. That bear ran off after being shot. Your partner even tried to stop it with a .338. That's hardly a non CNS stop with your pet load. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
You are full of BS "E" When I shot that bear all 4 legs went straight out spread eagle style and that was that. I hit in the back of the rib cage the bullet ranging forward to the off shoulder. You were not there and your continued miss representing of the facts is BS This bear I emptied my 338 win on shooting all five of the 250 grain Parttions ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000001.jpg)
Last edited by jwp475; 05/28/10.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
You've shown us that picture of the bear that came to your moose kill many times. So now you say it was going away and then you shot him. Gee, and all of this time I thought you shot him because he was coming head on and threatening you.
So some bears take five shots from a .338 w/ 250 gr. Noslers while a non CNS hit from your custom pistol is all it takes.
If you say so. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,196
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,196 |
Some food for thought.
Do any of the mentioned pistol cartridges have as much ME as the by today's standards lowly .30-30W? Which I doubt would be ones first choice for a bear stopper.
I didn't look them all up, but the ones I did fall far short. The .357 isn't even close. Just to keep things in perspective. Almost any rifle is better than almost any handgun. Then again, any handgun is better than a sharp stick!
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633 |
If you're limiting your choice to a 357 or nothing, you're infinitely better off packing bear spray. The latter has a high-percentage chance of canceling the "rage factor," while the former is very likely to increase it. Have you ever seen a bear sprayed? Having seen two bears sprayed a total of four times I would consider bear spray slightly more than a joke. I personally know more people that had very bad experiences with the crap than I know bear attacks. You cannot fly with it so there is a very good chance you cannot even use it where you might need it most... art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633 |
Some food for thought.
Do any of the mentioned pistol cartridges have as much ME as the by today's standards lowly .30-30W? Which I doubt would be ones first choice for a bear stopper.
I didn't look them all up, but the ones I did fall far short. The .357 isn't even close. Just to keep things in perspective. Almost any rifle is better than almost any handgun. Then again, any handgun is better than a sharp stick! Is there a single less meaningful measure of bullet efficacy than ME? I have yet to see one less reliable.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,196
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,196 |
I guess it's just one more attempt at "Hammer of Thor" quantification. All numbers need to be evaluated for what they show vs. what they are intended to show. Some have more value than others.
Re: bear spray: I've never used it, but I've read/heard some are effective while other brands are merely condiment.
A Rem 760 in '06 with 220 gr RN is my handi-carry rifle lately. Maybe I'll sprinkle the ammo with cayenne?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633 |
Might lead to a sticky chamber, best to carry the cayenne in your pocket...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
|
|
|
|
|
616 members (163bc, 06hunter59, 1936M71, 10gaugeman, 1beaver_shooter, 69 invisible),
2,595
guests, and
1,337
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,716
Posts18,475,621
Members73,941
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
