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wow, you would have to have a super powerful load in a 45 to make it go through your house walls, and through somebody else's house walls and still have enough power to kill someone... a 230 grain bullet going 900 fps will certainly do it, but after 2 walls, siding, and anything else it may have hit, its not really very likely that it would have the mojo to kill someone...
it might, but it doesnt seem likely.
30-06 till i die, the greatest round ever! I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy! CEO of a Turdlike People: Turds & Tats Division... (per Ingwe  )
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Doesnt have to be someone elses house walls, can be your own, itn doesnt have to be a house at all, it can be glass,ply wood, sheet rock, metal. The point is 1, HP are proven to be better stoppers, 2 they are less likely to over penetrate and penetrate less overall. Why take the risk when there are CLEARLY better choices.
Last edited by warpig602; 07/31/10.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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agreed, but if his gun wont function with HPs then they are clearly NOT the better choice in a life and death situation.
30-06 till i die, the greatest round ever! I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy! CEO of a Turdlike People: Turds & Tats Division... (per Ingwe )
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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First of all, I don't use FMJ's for self defense. Second, and by far the most important, if I need to defend myself against someone, HE is the agressor. By law, if I kill an innocent while defending myself, HE is guilty of Murder One. E
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Campfire Outfitter
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By law, if I kill an innocent while defending myself, HE is guilty of Murder One. E  you cant be serious?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Winchester Ranger, not sure if Id be too keen on using hardball as mentioned above for SD. Several generations of U.S. soldiers used 230 hardball. I can't recall hearing too many complaints. A government model and 230 grain hardball is a system. Browning designed them to work together,..and they do. Most of the hardball used by soldiers is shot in practice. Most combat deaths are caused by artillery, rockets, IED's, machine guns, mortars and rifles. Also, use of a handgun in war is different than in peacetime. Soldiers use hardball mainly because of several treaties criminalizing the use of expanding bullets.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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First of all, I don't use FMJ's for self defense. Never said you did. I was referring to the oher member here who suggested using for SD ammo. You just happen to agree with hime on not worrying about lawsuits from using said ammo in a self defense situation.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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First of all, I don't use FMJ's for self defense. Second, and by far the most important, if I need to defend myself against someone, HE is the agressor. By law, if I kill an innocent while defending myself, HE is guilty of Murder One. E lol That has to rank right up there with the advice to pull somebody you shot outside your house inside it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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agreed, but if his gun wont function with HPs then they are clearly NOT the better choice in a life and death situation. The best choice here is to get that gun functioning with HP's or trade for one that does. The only time FMJ's would be best would be if he hadn't done that yet and had to use it right now. Even if one plans to shoot only ball ammo, it is always good to have a pistol that will function on anything. My experience is that they will probably function even better with FMJ then and also you are set if you can't find the ammo of your choice.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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agreed, but if his gun wont function with HPs then they are clearly NOT the better choice in a life and death situation. I didnt see where he posted that his gun would work with HP ammo, my mistake. Even so, the critcal defensce line uses a polymer insert giving it a round profile, expanding FMJ, powerball, magsafe....jsut to name a few.
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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First of all, I don't use FMJ's for self defense. Second, and by far the most important, if I need to defend myself against someone, HE is the agressor. By law, if I kill an innocent while defending myself, HE is guilty of Murder One. E lol That has to rank right up there with the advice to pull somebody you shot outside your house inside it. Hes from California..........im surprised they even let him have a gun, let alone buy ammo for one.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You two need to read the law. Anyone who dies during the commission of a listed felony, assault w/ a deadly weapon, burgulary, robbery, rape, etc. is gulity of first degree murder.
Since you can't use a gun defend yourself unless you have reasonable cause to believe that you or another person is in danger of great bodily harm, that's an assault with a deadly weapon, or death, that's attempted murder, etc. they are now, by law, the agressor and are responsible for any deaths that occur during the commision of those crimes. From any cause I might add.
BTW, I've been to and been part of the investigation of lots of shootings, like several dozen. I've seen a few dozen innocent people shot, even killed. None of them were behind anything when killed. None, zero. So, the odds of anyone killing an innocent that is behind any kind of barrier are quite remote. E
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Care to find this mysterious law on the books? So you've been to several dozen shootings, of which, a few dozen involved innocent bystanders being shot?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Do you mind me asking how it is you were able to witness these crime scenes?
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Good commentary from Ayoob: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.htmlBut, when the enemy was right there in the trenches with you, ready to spear you with the blood-stained bayonet of his Mauser, these long, heavy rifles that needed a four-step process to hand-cycle another cartridge into the firing chamber were not the optimum defensive tools. The 1911 pistol, on the other hand, proved to be in its element there. Eight quick flicks of the index finger unleashed eight heavy 230-grain bullets, almost half an inch in diameter and traveling some 830 feet per second. At close range, when a single .45 slug struck the enemy in the wishbone, he tended to be immediately rendered hors de combat. To hell with bayoneted rifles, said the doughboys; this Colt .45 automatic was the ticket to getting out of the trenches alive once the enemy hordes had flowed into those trenches with you.
Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Its not WWI anymore. And we arent using these gun in wartime setting with no other option available to us.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You two need to read the law. Anyone who dies during the commission of a listed felony, assault w/ a deadly weapon, burgulary, robbery, rape, etc. is gulity of first degree murder.
Since you can't use a gun defend yourself unless you have reasonable cause to believe that you or another person is in danger of great bodily harm, that's an assault with a deadly weapon, or death, that's attempted murder, etc. they are now, by law, the agressor and are responsible for any deaths that occur during the commision of those crimes. From any cause I might add.
BTW, I've been to and been part of the investigation of lots of shootings, like several dozen. I've seen a few dozen innocent people shot, even killed. None of them were behind anything when killed. None, zero. So, the odds of anyone killing an innocent that is behind any kind of barrier are quite remote. E So if I go into a mini mart in your city and see an armed gunman comitting a robbery, and then shoots one of the clerks, I pull my gun and fire at him, missing with my 3 shots, but accidentally killing the second lerk and another person in a back room that I wont be charged and he will be charged with all 3? Wow.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Last time I read it, it was listed under California Penal Code Section 187.
I'm an ex LEO that worked in a big city. E
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If you come to Kalifornia and carry a gun into my local mini mart, you'll probably be charged with carrying a concealed weapon as you won't have a CCW permit.
You might be charged with something like manslaughter, but a conviction that could withstand appeal would be remote.
You might be sued for recklessly using your gun, especially if carried illegally, but, again, chances of you actually paying any judgement after an appeal are remote.
Thought I'd give you an short view of the Kalifornai legal system as I've it in action. E
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Cole, i agree with you on having a pistol that will function with whatever you care to run in it. however, if you are like i was at one point, and only had one gun for self defense purposes, which incidentally only worked with FMJ ammo in my case as well until i had a few things done to it, then by all means, use FMJ ammo. if you had the option of using HPs because your gun would function reliably with them, then yes, there would be no excuse for using ammo that didnt expand. they are the better ammo for self defense if your weapon will function reliably with them, in life and death situations, you need to use what works reliably as that will make the difference.
30-06 till i die, the greatest round ever! I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy! CEO of a Turdlike People: Turds & Tats Division... (per Ingwe )
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