Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Is the .45 caliber (.440) round ball adequate for deer?

I have a deposit on a custom made muzzleloader that is a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. It is unfired, but over 30 years old. I'm a lefty and to find one that is left handed is even more of a rarity. It was made with a heavy barrel in .45 caliber (.440) and that is the rub. I like everything about it but the caliber. I've already got a price to rebore it to either .50 or .54 at a very reasonable number but have also been thinking about having another barrel made for it and keeping the original barrel as it came from the maker.

What I'd like to know is what experience does anyone have with actually shooting east coast sized deer with a .45 caliber roundball. Good, bad or otherwise.

I share your concern ROMAC, though I must admit I have no personal experience shooting deer with a .45. I just won't do it (personal choice). Yeah, I know a .440 ball is adequate for deer with a well placed shot at a reasonable range. But in my view (and if you have the option) why hunt with a .45 when the .50 or .54 is so far superior and more appropriate for deer size game?

Way back when I was hunting a good bit with a ML, I thought about getting one of the TC rifles in 45. I figured since it was smaller and lighter, it would be a handy rifle for my type of hunting. 40cal and up is legal here for WT. I figured to use a maxiball.

If one were going to a bigger heavier rifle, as I did, I would think it would negate the advantages of the 45. I chose a TC 54 renegade. It has served me well with both RB and Maxiballs. I favored the maxiballs because they were much easier to start and push down the barrel.

No one I hunted with, or knew, used the 45 cal. There were a lot of 50's used.

Others may have more input.

Good luck, I hope this helps.

I already have T/C's and Lyman's in .50 and .54 and have had complete pass throughs multiple times on broadside shots over the years. This would be my 5th muzzleloader but first custom. I was quoted $135 plus return shipping for a rebore. I know I'll have to pay a lot more for a new barrel but I just might go that route.

The 1st deer I ever took with a Muzzleloaded was with a 45 cal. hatfield, big button buck at 63 paces, droped it, thru the smoke I saw a hind leg kick and it was done. used the 440 lead ball thru the lungs, a huge hole on the off side, deer went down as fast or faster than if I used a 06! wish I still had that gun beside looking Great it shot cloverleaves at 50yrds! live & learn!

LEAVE IT ALONE, the .45 is GREAT for deer. 90% of the over 200 I have taken with a ML has been with a .45 flinter.
I question the .440" thing though. A .45 will be .450" across the lands and a .445" ball is best but I use .450" with a .010" patch.
Get the land to land measured so you don't use a ball too small.
TC started the smaller ball junk for their barrels but they still shot better with the right size.

It's about equal to the M1 Carbine. Not my first choice but it will work.

Perhaps you should try it and see how you like it. You can always rebore or rebarrel.

I never had any deer go out of sight before dropping and many dropped right now.
I was told by someone long ago that the .45 was too small but you can't prove it by me.
Don't ever look at energy figures, see what the gun does and you will be happy.
I have killed deer with everything you can think of and the .45 round ball will never take a back seat.
It will make a .30 carbine look sick, better compare to a much larger gun. I would say a .35 Rem and maybe better then a 30-06.
All that with no meat loss.

I'd NEVER rebore the original barrel. Instead, I'd simply get a new Green Mountain .50 caliber replacement barrel for your muzzle-loader and retain the original barrel if that is your desire.

That said, the .45 prb is just fine for whitetails out to 70-80 yards... no need to go "bigger"... the .45 will get the job done with ease as long as you place your shot within the "kill zone" which is true of even a .40 caliber which is legal for deer in some, but not all States.

If you "gut-shoot" a deer with a .50, .54 or even a .58 caliber ball, you have a "mess" on your hands. Better that you shoot it with the .45 which has lighter recoil and adequate "power" within that limited range I've already mentioned. I know a good many deer hunters who successfully use the .45 caliber rifles with a round, patched rifle ball to bring down their annual venison.

While the .50 is better, the .45 is more than "adequate" and will do the job if you get reasonable bullet placement. Case-in-point, most States allow the use of the .45 caliber rpb for deer hunting.

'Nuff said... good luck...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I would agree with the others here . The 45 is a good deer rifle and will do the job just fine even for NW Mule deer . that�s my personal experience

Now that being said . If your barrel is a 45 . It will be . 450 bore . Thus you will be shooting a .435 or .440 ball .
If you bore is .440 then you have a 44 cal not a 45 .
If you do some historical reading on the American long rifle , you will find that they were of small caliber .
50 + were big bores .
In the L&C journals , you will find that Clark and others write about Clark taking even elk size game with his Small rifle . He describes this rifle as shoot 100 to the lb . thus it would be a 36 cal .

The problem wasn�t that it wouldn�t kill elk size game the problem was that it didn�t leave a big enough hole to leave a good blood trail . but again thats a 36




get to know your rifle and become able to consistntly place your shot . do that and you will have no problems

What powder charge will be used?

FWIT-
The old Lyman BP handbook I have, in 45cal a 80gr charge and a 133gr RB lists at:

MV 1931 fps with 1088ft/lbs ME;

at 100yds e is 314ft/lbs.

It falls off pretty quick.

This is from a 28" barrel.

Not so for size. If you want accuracy you NEED the patch to engrave the ball .005" at the bottom of the grooves. A .445" ball and .020" patch will just do it. In the old days when I started we used a .450" ball and .010" patch and it still works with the proper rifling that is deep enough. The problem is that TC started to make shallow rifling and removed the accuracy a ML is capable of.
This is what you should get at 50 yards with 5 shots, with the proper fit.

I've use a 45 a lot ,better to carry and more fun to hunt with for deer .Now I have them all pretty much 36 threw 58 the one I use most now days is 45 cal 80 to 100 gr, maxi ball , a sabot mite shoot better then round .I have a cva that loves these over the round ball with a twist of 1-66

sorry i ment to say 440 or 445 "popular "dont know what i was thinking

past that dont bet on the engraving thing
smoothbores have no rifling nore do they need a patch and with a proper load can hold a single hole group even at 5o yards +.

now past that . take me hershel rifle . her bore is .548 . i shoot a . 530 ball and a .018 patch . not that tight of a combow and guess what ?
the world turns .
well i seem to do ok








see the thing is , while the patch has to impart twist to the ball , it can still do that becouse the ball exspands somewhat as the pressure from the main charge slams into it.

i also use hard ball for hunting . there is very little engraving of patch material concerning them

I shot one once with a 54 round ball that did not do much bleeding for the first 100 yards, then lots of blood. I did use a 45 some but used the maxi ball and it will kill deer dead. I switched to the maxi ball on the 54 and killed several deer with it before I got an inline and they all bled good. miles

I know now why I said .that
Because this bore isn�t a 45 . it�s a 44 IE the bore is .440 .
Im sure this has been said before . But ill remind everyone .
Just because your barrel says 45 , 50 , 54.���.. Or you have been told it�s a given caliber . That doesn�t mean it is .
In actuality is can be under or over bored . Especially concerning Custom barrels .
Its not un common to find Colerian barrels + or - .008.
Douglas I have found seen range + or- .010
Green mountain ? Im thinking they are down to in the .005 to .010 range .
My wife�s 50 carries a GM barrel and she plays hell getting a .490 ball down with anything bigger then a .005 patch
Even Getz and Rice barrels carry a variance .
Not sure what Ed Rayls tolerances are now .

I want to say TC tolerances are + to minus .010 .
Im not sure what CVA�s tolerances are . But I can tell you they very
Original barrels ?? Well they are what ever they turned out to be

Please don't shoot deer with a 110 grain round ball.

I am sure a 44 or 45 RB or whatever you want to call it will kill a deer, but I wouldn't want to try and track it through our woods.

I've hit them with a 54-Maxi and not have them bleed a drop externally. One time in particular, the only reason I knew it was a hit was because the deer went down at the strike, jumped up and ran 100yds or so, through the thickest stuff this side of Seattle. I never found a drop of blood.

Captchee, now that is so very important and I am glad you brought it up. Every barrel should be measured to figure out fit. Rifling depths vary all over the place too and that makes a huge difference in what can be loaded and what will be accurate.
What I shoot will not go in other barrels without a sledge hammer.
You must work with what you have so there is no place for any arguments at all.
I still say a round ball rifle or one that uses Maxi balls is SOOOO much easier to load then a lot of the inline rifles.
Friends bring those things here to sight in and I seen too many of them forcing the ram rod against a tree to get a bullet or sabot in after only one shot.
How I hate to wipe a bore between shots when hunting.
What I found and use in my rifles will NOT work for all guns so I will never dispute what anyone else shoots.

My .45 balls weigh about 138 gr and I have never had to track any deer. Deer shot with the cap and ball .45 have never gone anywhere, the last one made one jump over my fence and fell dead when it landed.
99% of deer I hit with the .54 round ball fall in place.
I shot a running deer at 125 yards with my TC .50 and a Maxi ball by pulling the right lead and raising a foot high. She was down in 25 yards because of her speed. Perfect shot behind the shoulder. I have dropped many deer on a full out run with my muzzle loaders.
Only a bad hit will cause a problem with any gun. I know a guy that shot a small doe with a 12 gauge slug, made a bad hit and had to track her in the snow. He shot again every time he caught up and it took 11 shots to stop her. There might have been 4# of edible meat left, the poor thing was a rag.
I help guys here every year find deer they shoot with 7mm and .300 mags, some we never find. One 9 point went a mile and quit bleeding in 100 yards. I knew where he was going and we found him. There was a hole in him so large you could stick your head in him.
Nothing will replace a good hit and a bad hit will not drop a deer. They are very easy to kill with the proper hit and even a small gun will work.
Yes, I have lost a few deer and it was never with a muzzle loader. It was either a poor hit with a bow or the wrong bullet for the velocity in a modern rifle or revolver.
I never lost a deer with a shotgun and slugs.
You are going to lose a deer now and then, if you don't you are not hunting enough, it WILL happen. You have to get over it.

Lead must be heavier where you live. The .440 roundball isn't enough. The .490 is ok and the .530 is enough. Ballistic charts don't lie.

Ballistically the 45 is equivalent to a 30 - 30. Those that say a 45 cal roundball for deer isn't sufficent, well let's say their experience doesn't match mine. The question will be the range you can shoot it accurately. I would comfortably shoot my 45 flinty to 75 yards with a roundball. The deer will have a double lung hole punched through it while everyone debates the effectiveness.

I do not hunt with charts!
I go through that problem with gun hunters all the time when they read muzzle energy in a book. That has never, ever killed an animal. Bullet work is what does the job not loading for the highest velocity or energy.
I know it is hard to explain but only vast experience killing deer and doing a necropsy on each will show the truth.
A .440 ball is 130 gr and a .457 ball is 143 gr. Seems to me 13 gr is not going to change a thing when there is only .017" difference in diameter. The weight difference is only an air gun pellet.
It does seem strange that the light balls and low velocities are so effective but it was that way long ago and still is, deer have not grown armor plates.
I use 300 to 420 gr boolits in my revolvers at 1160 to 1350 fps and they also kill deer like crazy but not much better then a .45 Flinter and both are actually better then the wrong bullet in a .300 mag.
It still comes down to what the ball or boolit does in the animal.
Boolit weight will give penetration way over a light boolit or ball but remember what it did inside the deer before leaving is only the thing that counts.
Let me give you an illustration of penetration with a 420 gr .475 boolit from a revolver. Energy from a book is WAY less then a high power rifle. But some will tell you it is wasted on the off side of a deer but it makes mush of the heart and lungs before leaving. It does not ruin meat either. The boolit is very hard and does not deform at all. Just don't line up four deer or you have a lot of work to do!
It blew up 4 jugs, shot water 30 feet up, split 2 more and penetrated 14 jugs.

This is what it does to a deer.

The point is that if I speed this boolit to over 1600 fps it LOSES killing effect and you can lose deer even though energy climbs. Yet I can slow it way down and still kill. This boolit will kill deer at 800 fps.
Please don't read charts and don't put down a round ball.
The muzzle loader is fantastic and a .440 ball will do more then your charts tell you.

they may not lie but the often dont tell the truth eather ..
.440 RB=128 grains
.451 RB =138 grains
.454 RB =140 grains

all , depending on the load put out at least 350ftlbs at 100 yards with magnum loads of 120+ grains . over 400ftlb at 100 and over 1400 at the muzzle
put that ball behind the shoulder in through the hart and lungs and the world will turn .

As stated earlier, 40cal and above is legal in this state, so obviously there are others who believe it is "enough". So, I don't see a problem.

I've not weighed one, but my Lyman BP handbook lists the .445 RB at 133 Grs.

The Lyman BP handbook also provides maximum recommended loads.

Numrich arms:
45cal GO 45-55Grs FFg

TC
45 cal Hawkin the Seneca is listed lower
Dupont
440RB do not exceed 110gr. FFg

Tingle
45cal rifle Dupont 75grs FFFg

Green River Rifle Works CH FFg
45 cal Suggested load 70gr max load 100gr.

H & R max load in 45cal 100gr FFg



Navy arms is sorta out there by themselves
"The following is a list of suggested maximum loads or the Hawkin rifles that are made in the USA. 45 and 50 cal-150grs FFFg powder behind a 500 gr projectile."

They seem to be on an island.

Looking at the load data for 120gr loads the data shows

120gr FFFg C&H

MV 2046 ME 1234Ft/Lbs

100 yds energy 346ft/lbs

If you look at FFg GO

100gr FFg is the highest load listed

MV 2008fps ME 1189ft/lbs
100yds energy 335ft/lbs

The highest load listed for FFFg GO
is 75grs

MV 2025fps ME 1209ft/lbs
100yd energy 341ft/lbs

These are from 28" barrels.

This is an old manual, at the time it was the best I could find. Things may be different now, dono. This is what is was when it was printed.


Added; CR was 1975

I used Douglas barrels on all of my flint locks and my load has always been 90 gr of FFG in the .45's because it is most accurate.
I use 100 in my .54 (RB) but when I shoot 200 meters I up it to 120 gr. (RS Pyrodex for competition.)
BP is funny and some of those loads will not increase velocity.
There is a point when increasing the charge will stop any increase in velocity and you can actually go backwards. Powder weight has to be added to ball weight because you are pushing more down the bore. There is a point when a lot of unburned powder is blown out the muzzle too. It takes a long barrel when you use more powder.
Some of today's rifles have awful short barrels but most guys use substitute powders.
I will not use FFFG in my rifles.

Thanks for all the feedback. This was great. I put a deposit on the .45 and should have it in a few weeks.

When I get it I'll have to post a few pictures.

Ed Rayl would be the fellow to take it out to a .50 so it will be suitable for deer sized game.

On my scale .440s weigh 110 grains.

The .45 kills stuff fine, and will if the shooter is doing his job.

Your scale, or your diameter measurement, is off. .440s weight between 118 and 128, depending on alloy, assuming a true .440".

you need a new scale

sorry swampman after reading my last post last night . my comment seems alittle curt .

for those without charts , the math isnt hard to do
Determine the volume of a sphere: Diameter cubed (D x D x D)X.5236 X 2,873.5
(2,873.5 is the weight of a cubic inch of pure Pb in grains).
the result is the wieght in grains of your soft lead RB

so lest plug in a .440 RB and see

.440x.440x.440 =.085184
.085184 X.5236 = .0446023
.0446023 X2873.5 = 128.1647
so the grain wieght of a .440 pure lead RB is 128 grains

if it doesnt wieght that . then
1) you have a void in your ball
2) your ball isnt made of Pure lead
3) your scale is off or been zeroed for something and is deducting some wieght

or you can go here and use the calculator
as you can see the lightest is Linotype at 118 grains
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.440&v2=2641.4677

Deer have evolved into such large, tough beasts since I started killing them 40 some odd years ago. It's a wonder some of us lived to tell about it.

glad you said east coast. Southwest coues whit tail are very small

Bottom line, shot placement.

Running happens and then it doesn't... I shot one of mine center lungs with my 50 bmg... never a drop of blood, ran 200 plus yards, found with a grid search.... in a THICKET.....

I have shot quite a few with 45 TC and round balls. Move that up to a maxi ball and it kills better, but we never had an issue with the round ball not doing its job either.

I often wonder what it is about moving up in caliber one step that makes folks think it makes all the difference in the world, when it rarely does.... kind of like saying a 30-06 is much better than a 308..... much would not be my choice of words....

That being said I generally take 1-2 every year with a 32-20 and a 90 XTP bullet, not going all that fast... thats much less than my 45 anyway...

.45 will do just fine. I use a custom Jp Beck .45 flinter. I have killed numerous whitetail with it. 2 seasons ago now I took one buck and 2 does with it within 3 weeks. all three were clean shots cutting a rib on the way in through both lungs top of heart at breaking bone on the way out with the bullet lodging under the hide of the opposite shoulder. All three round ball were recovered. All of them ran no more than 30 yards before they dropped over.

Many will give you the bigger is better story and that you should use nothing smaller than a .50 cal but I am with Rost495. Placement Placement Placement.

Practice,Practice,Practice. As always, Shot placement is the Key!

I've cleanly killed a half-dozen local deer (including the biggest of my life- 190lb. 11 point atypical) with a .45 Ohio-style rifle. .445 PRB and 70gr. of FFFg. None required tracking, none required a 2nd shot. Farthest distance something like 70 yds. It's performance can't be differentiated from my .50 cal. The only muzzleloader I've used that was more effective was an original .58 Springfield. Lord, what a mess that minie ball made!

Found this out years ago with any muzzleloader loaded with 80-90 gr of 3fg an a round ball,maxi or sabot with 40-58 guns these will kill deer .The bigger calibre add a few more yards to the shot that is .$0 or 45 cal I would say is a 75 yard gun 50 out to 150 same with 54 to 58 with 98% of hunters.Remember a bad hit is a bad hit

Some have argued apparently that the .45 RB is not up to snuff for deer. Plain silly talk it is. There's been plenty of testimony to counter in favor of the .45 it's a little difficult to argue the success. Said earlier, it's all about placement, regardless of what you shoot. Either you can put the ball/bullet where it belongs or you can't. In case of the latter, either start practicing or get closer.

Here's what a CB Short can do with placement, and if a short can do it, so can the .45 RB.

What is that a sabre tooth camel?

Since this thread was brought back from the dead I thought I'd share a few pics of the gun in question that started this thread since I ended up buying it.

Sweet rifle, enjoy!

No, it's my 'Ex' trophy wife.

Nice rig Roger. Have you fired it yet?

book worm vs experience talking here

My .45 caplock has a 40" Ed Rayl barrel with a 1:66 twist. With a 128 grain patched round ball it kills Tennessee whitetails DRT out to at least 75 yards. I've taken a pickup truck load from my farm, and haven't had to track one over 25 yards yet. I built the rifle as a chunk gun for the annual Alvin York shoot, but I've moved up to a .50 caliber flintlock with a 48" barrel for that event. The .45 is useful for stand hunting- - - -I wouldn't want to carry it far, though!

A .22 LR is adequate if ya know where to stick the bullet!!!

Wow a 10 year old thread, not a record but still.

Forums dead anyway....who shives a git!

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