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Ah, the bolt on a muzzleloader makes it more accurate, does it?

That makes a whole lot of sense. Would you care to explain how a bolt makes a muzzleloader more accurate?

both carry a bolt . be they lever of bolt action
Do they do anything really different then say a hammer type action .
Well no not really when it comes to a muzzle loading application
Unless you consider an added amount of safety , considering how the bolts lock up .
But even in that area both are very close

As for usefulness . Well it would be about as useful as a break open or a bolt action .
No real difference in loading or priming .
All the lever does in a muzzle loading application is serve as a way to action the bolt and thus cock the firing pin .
And one could produce either an exposed ignition or closed , by simple modification of the bolt itself
The thing though is it really comes down to consumer mindset and cost of production .
a lot more folks relate to a bolt action configuration . IR the Remington 700 type being the most common .

As to accuracy . you will have to explain to me how you conclude a bolt action is more accurate then a lever action?
Is my 30.30 Winchester or marlin as accurate at 300 yards as say my 65X55 Swed ? No . but that has nothing to do with the action

Now I would be the very first to admit I know less them many here when it comes to modern marketed muzzle loading rifles .
But I honestly think the decline of folks are seeing is very much like the decline in traditional muzzleloader companies in the lat 1970�s-early 80�s
Production costs are on the rise .
Manufactures are producing a product with high liability .
The consumer market isn�t willing to pay much more then is being charged now .
Top that of with no real resale value .

Beating as much of the above as one can and you have a better chance of staying in business.
that�s why the importers like CVA , Traditions , Lyman , will stay around while companies like Knight , White , close up while others like TC an Savage end up against the ropes .

The money isn�t in the guns . Its in all the other items that come along . IE new bullets , powders and such . But even with them , the money tapers away . But as long as they keep coming out with something new that has a low production cost . Yet is capable of carrying a high retail price . That market will stay fluid

Aw, c'mon cap, I wanna hear him explain why a bolt action muzzleloader is "more accurate."

Fixed barrel.....much faster lock time.

Much faster than what?

Only the Savage is faster. Just the fact that it's a Remington makes it better than the rest.

OK, quote the lock times for the Remington and others.

Google must be slow this morning.




Actually, that's incorrect since remington no longer makes them, you should use past tense.

Telling that they were discontinued.

do what ????
what are you talking about
are you saying a lever action berrel is fixed to the reciever in a diffrent way then a bolt action?

that some how the firing pin in a lever action travels noticably slower then the pin in a bolt action ?

now i could see miliseconds slower in the case of say a a winchester 64 . but i seriously doubt its enough slower that you or anyone else would ever be effected by it

it think he is googling oppenions again Smokepole




but again this doesnt hold true for all lever actions and I suspect any acuracy issues has far more to do with bullet preformance and shooter . then it does with the type of action

The most successful new muzzleloading rifle launch was the T/C "Omega" rifle, followed by the Encore pro hunter in numbers of units sold.

Once the Omera hit the market the ML "Bolt action" was to die a slow death. The demise of the Bolt action ML was not due to the lock time on the trigger or the accuracy of the barrel. Closed drop lever breech designs provided acceptable accuracy and a much easier to clean ML rifle platform. (bingo)

The fact that the bolt action Remington 700 ML was discontinued long ago and Knight rifles new rifle products could not complete is evidence to the evolution to the drop lever breech designs on ML rifles.

The Rem. 700 ML followed the rest of the dinosaurs.

Doc

Spot on analysis

I think you're wrong about that.

Doc, I agree with all that, but IMHO, another reason all of the modern muzzleloaders with long actions like the bolt action bit the dust was that for practical purposes all the actions accomplish is to add length and weight with absolutely no benefit in return. If your hunting consists of walking 200 yards to a tree stand, not such a big deal but if you need to cover a lot of ground, especially in the mountains, weight matters. Unless you're a guy like captchee who totes long-barreled traditionsl rifles and wool blankets for a bedroll, that is.

That's why I like my Triumph.

yep granted .
however i would point that even thought a long abarrel . if the rifle is ballanced properly , you dont really notice the diffrence
i did a quick google and see that the Omaga wieghs in at 7 lbs. i sure would have thought it would have been less then that
so i would then have to ask , how does it ballance .
is it nutral or forward ?

i would dare to guess probably rather nose heavy . forward

my Hershel wieghs in at just a tad over 7lbs and carries a 42 inch 54 cal iron barrel .
it ballances exsactly 4 fingers in front of the lock .
i can tell you carring it is a dream be i craddles , one handed or over the shoulder .
infact i would rather carry it over a long distance , then i would my 65x55 without a sling

Savage CEO Ron Coburn, who hunts with a 10ML himself, promises that every new Savage 10ML-II is capable of 1-1/2 inch accuracy at 100 yards,


1 1/2" groups? Hell my $188 cva wolf does that, no it does better than that.

my cva hunterbolt does 1.5" groups with 90gr BH209 and a 245gr powerbelt and it doesnt cost an arm and a leg.

accu trigger is funny. My brother in law was shooting his 22250 savage 2 days ago and it kept going click, click, bang, click, bang.

Oh, so now Randy Wakeman is the authority we're all quoting?

How about this gem off his website, it's his review of the "bolt action" wonder gun:

""Unfortunately, the 700 ML / MLS rifles have some serious flaws. As supplied, the trigger varies from over 6 lbs. to in well in excess of 7 lbs. as measured by my trigger pull gauge.

The buttstock is hollow, which helps to explain the rifle's muzzle heavy feel. The ramrod is poorly designed and painful to use. Worse yet, the barrel can easily be lifted away from the flimsy plastic forearm no matter how tightly the lug screws are tightened.

The hex-head bolt stop screw on the tested model is fussy. Finger-tight, the bolt falls right out. Tightened firmly with the supplied wrench, the bolt is locked in place and does not move at all.

The instruction manual suggests that you stick a coin in a vise to disassemble the bolt. A coin, and a vise to hold the coin, is not included in the supplied tools. These Remington muzzleloading rifles are the only ones I have seen that do not come with all tools necessary for disassembly. The front trigger guard screw is a very small hex-head, much smaller than the other two 5/32" Allen head stock screws. To remove the barreled action for a though cleaning you'll have to hunt for a wrench, as well as your vise.

The 3-way ignition (#11 caps, musket caps, and 209 primers) breechplug comes with a 209 shotshell primer nipple installed. Unfortunately, the blow back with 209 primers is fierce, the worst I have encountered. This is due to large vents that surround the primer. And the 209 primers stick in the 700ML after virtually every shot. Included with your new Remington is a green handled primer pick, so you can pry out the spent primers.

The supplied weather shroud is a tube that fits over the end of the bolt, then ensconces the primer nipple. Currently, the Remington WebSite states "NOTE: The Model 700 ML Weather Shroud is not intended for use with 209 primers." This information has not yet filtered into the instruction manual (!), but it is good advice. Firing the rifle with the weather shroud in place directs most to the gas right into your face. If you must shoot a Remington 700ML / MLS with the weather shroud in place, the #11 cap ignition is the least painful option.

A 700 MLS was test fired for this article. With the feel of flaming sand impregnating itself into my face, this gun truly is a pain to shoot. It kicks like a mule, is decidedly muzzle heavy, and the barreled action is poorly fitted to the molded stock.

In a recent widely distributed article I suggested that the prospective muzzleloading buyer was better off looking to a true black powder company to fulfill their needs. Remington has confirmed the veracity of that suggestion. Remington has apparently left the muzzleloading business, no longer participated in NMLRA events in 2004, and has no production scheduled for their 700ML in 2005.""


Yep, I gotta agree with you swampy, Wakeman sure knows his stuff!!!!

Wakeman's article is outdated. You should know that. There's a muzzleloader that beats both the Remington and the Savage in ignition time. Get a clue.

Mine's A Triumph, Cap, and I really like the way it handles and balances. I'll weigh it and get back to ya.

Bigblock,

I have no doubt to your CVA groups. I have the highest respect and admiration for Ron Coburn of Savage. Ron took a bankrupt gun company
and turned it into a very profitable and viable gun manufacturer. I would rather have a Savage centerfire rifle than any Remington.

OPPS...here comes Swampy on my butt.

Doc