Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Van Zwolle's Elk kill with 6.5 Creedmoor

Laugh away; and, no, I wouldn't shoot them at a formal range. They're plinking targets and were found the way most plinking targets are found--by being in the truck during a plinking trip.

I am assuming Mule Deer�s post is somewhat tongue in cheek but it does bring up an important point in the discussion.

If extending your hunting limits is something you are interested in at some point you have to take your range practice into the hunting field. Steel rocks and paper never move and always give a hunter an unlimited amount of time to set up.

Using various antlerless tags and coyotes and other varmints will show a hunter holes in his technique.

Not that a doe is any less important that a buck or bull tag but if the situation starts to overwhelm the hunter he or she can just stop without the add pressure of a trophy animal.

The first time a hunter shoots at 600yds probably should not be at the buck/bull of a lifetime.

Wayne had used the same basic system on paper/rocks/steel/coyotes/whitetail does all before he took that shot at 603 yds.

John Moses point is very true ie: Pressure discombobulates

Time pressure and long distance do not mix well

One of the most important skills in long range shooting is to learn to just say not today.

The fun of it all is you don�t lay in the sleeping bag that night second guessing on passing up a shot if you put the time in to know what you can do on demand and what is a shot you have no business even attempting.

You're making my point for me.

NASCAR drivers are even a smaller subset of the universe then hunters competent to shoot an elk at 600 yards. If you randomly selected 100 people who fall within the demographics of the current pool of NASCAR drivers, put them into the cars and told them to go 180 mph, you would probably have a large number of serious accidents and that would be within a controlled environment, a race track. Most people are smart enough not to drive beyond their skills because failure can mean injury or even death, but young men quite often kill themselves when they are looking for and fail to recognize the limits of their skills.

Jeff

I'm certainly not against long range hunting. I'm for any hunting that is legal and get's folks in the sport.

The thing I'm most proud of is that I have never lost a buck or a doe. I bow hunted for 29 years and hunted with a rifle or shotgun for 36.

I was blessed to own several good dogs that found animals I never would have.

I want to make it out of this life without losing an animal, just a little challenge with myself.

So if it ain't right I don't shoot, that doesn't mean I haven't taken hard shots, I just believed I could make them.

Same with guys who pop critters along way off, most know they can make the shot.

Just one man talking about his goofy ways. YMMV.

Best,

JM

You're presenting a "what if" scenario. The truth is that most people can't bench 250 lbs. 'cause they don't consider that skill/ability as being a particularly important asset, plus they don't want to put out the effort to go to the gym, learn the proper technique, and practice/do the reps. Likewise, the vast majority of the 15M hunters in the U.S. don't go to the range and practice on a regular basis, 'cause they don't want to allocate the time/$$ and many figure that technology will do the heavy lifting for them. As Vince Lombardi, Jr. once told a leadership class that I was in, "Most American men think that they are born with an innate ability to drive a car, shot a gun, and coach a team, but the truth is that they aren't.".

Jeff

Yepper people can do a lot if they train to do it..

Guess my point was that I feel more than 1% are capable of learning to shoot at long range, not that only 1% of the people can ever do it. Capice?

Dober

Agreed, more than 1% COULD, but they won't, 'cause it takes too much effort.

Jeff

One of the most important skills in long range shooting is to learn to just say not today.

The fun of it all is you don�t lay in the sleeping bag that night second guessing on passing up a shot if you put the time in to know what you can do on demand and what is a shot you have no business even attempting._________________________

Very well said, sir!

John Burns,

Yes sir, I recognize an AMAX has the ability to do well, but reducing impact speed at longer range helps. Case in point:

My then #1 Ruger in 6mm BR, 105 AMAX 2850 mv, 200 yd buck, spine shot, bullet COMPLETELY disintegrated in 1-2", dropped deer DRT.

I placed that shot there, as I KNEW the bullet was not going deep at that range.

Less than 10-15 seconds, I had reloaded, set the Kepplinger trigger for it's 8 oz pull, threw my 6-24x mil dot 4200 on another deer, a doe at 400 yds on the edge of a field, the landowner had LRF'd, having practiced to the furthest of the rifle range I shoot at, 415 yds, I knew where to hold, and quickly dropped an Amax thru the center both lungs of that deer, died w/in 20 yds or so of the hit.

Having practiced, I honestly have to say with THAT rifle, scope, and light caliber made that truly a 'chip shot' for me as I had both forarms tight down on the window ledges shooting out of the corner of a blind. An Elk, ALOT larger animal, say 3x or more the size, at 1.5x the distance, it's not hard to believe, given as MY shots, having little to zero wind, a known range, and using a rifle you had been practicing alot with, yet I tend to be like Ray and self impose my limit at around 400 yds.

That rifle above was not my typical hunting rifle, which often has a 4x or 6x scope, vs. the target/varmint set up I carried that day. I would not have ever thought of shooting a deer at 400 with that rifle before that day, but when it played out, it was w/o thought, and instinct took over. My range practice/training. I had ZERO doubt I was putting an AMAX right thru that deers lungs, before I squeezed, otherwise, I never would have taken the shot.

If I had an opportunity, at a nice animal at a KNOWN distance, and had shot extensively with the rifle in my hand, w/little wind, I might consider such a shot, but I can repect how it concerns some that hear of these reports, as it might encourage those who have no business doing it, and wounding an animal.

Something I share like Ray and likely many others here, I respect my game, and want a clean kill.

Regardless of skill, and equipment, each hunter IMHO has a personal responsibility to the animal, and our sport to KNOW their limits and not take too great of risk as the race car analogy above.

As much as I endorse 6.5mm's, and feel a 600 yd shot on deer is well in their capability IF the rifleman is, I DO agree above, it's light on ELK past 300-400 yds, regardless of bullet. Using a bullet that will expand at slow speeds, and putting it thru the lungs, was not much risk to my mind of a clean kill. Not by the likes of a good shooter, who has practiced much, though most agree he is more the exception than the rule when it comes to marksmanship of the every day hunter.

There was a time in college, and a few years later, where I had the opportunity to do ALOT of shooting, inc. in the field. No prairie dogs here but we got creative, we shot various birds, i.e. sparrows, red wing black birds, crows, etc. as well as a few coyotes. When you shoot 50-200 rounds a day, over a period of weeks or more, you learn you can pull off shots that astound you. Shooting small long range targets with rifles you can shoot and learn w/o flinching (222/223/22-250/Swift/243/6mm) made larger targets seem easy. It also taught us about wind drift, not by computing in an electronic gadget, just by hit/miss/correct.

That's where the skill and confidence intersect and allow one to take a shot further than normal, when needed, if conditions are right, and you choose to take it.

I agree a VERY small percentage of hunters across the board get that practice in, for whatever reason. But those willing to invest the time, can do good work when called upon. I am sure WVZ felt the same way when he leveled on that elk that I did on the above deer w/my 6BR.

I was shooting last Sunday with 6 other guys that could for sure put a bullet thru an Elks ribs at 600 yards.

You have some good friends, careful who you hunt with, they might get theirs before you have a shot

As long as I get some steaks, it's allright.

LOL. I am with you on that one! Last one I ate put any beef to shame.

I"m probably not the most qualified to post on this thread.. BUT IMHO, given that the rifle, load, trigger, beddign, zeroing etc... were supposedly all taken care of ahead of time, and the weapon was primo and accurate... and you are on the ground prone with something like a bipod or over a backpack( I personally prefer the pack method for hunting) there should never be a question of a great hit.

Especially with the notation that there were NO conditions...

Personally, even with my mediocre ability, I"d be totally ashamed not to punch the first round right in the middle of those vitals given the same exact setup.

DOesn't mean its for everyone... but no offense, all WVZ did was limit the movement of the rifle to nil, via a solid 3 point plus prone rest, and activate the trigger without disturbing the sight picture....

I appreciate much of what has been said. I too believe that with practice, the right equipment, and experience, amazing things can be done in the field.

For me personally, I like hunting. Hunting is time in field, knowledge of animals, and getting close. It is so much fun to get close. When I rifle hunt, I like using the terrain, the wind and stealth to get as close as possible.

It is a pure adrenalin rush to get under 100, even 50 yards with a rifle and cleanly take whatever animal you are hunting.

In no way am I denigrating what Mr. Van Zwoll did, or anyone else that has put in the time to seriously practice and has shouldered the cost to have expensive top notch equipment.

But, they almost seem to be two different sports. One focused on getting as close as possible, under 200 yards, and one that stresses shooting skill, 500 to 1000 yards.

I see the same thing in bowhunting. A lot of my friends that shoot the latest compound, have sights set out to 100 yards. With a longbow or recurve, 30 to 35 yards is pretty much my max.

I've enjoyed your posts...thanks.

The most heart pounding 'hunting' I have done is when game is 30 yes and less, whether rifle or handgun, and I intend to use my long bow someday. I have a compound that was given to me, but no sights, and no plans. I like the sport w/no sights on a bow having grown up shooting small game with slingshots instinctively.

No doubt, there is shooting, and there is hunting and everyone decides how they want to enjoy it.