Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 200 or 250 grain cartridge for .45-70

how come no one makes a 200 or 250 grain load? I wish I had reloading equipment i would get the hornady flex tip 250 grainer and push it out to 2500-2600 fps

Hornady doesn't make a 250 gr bullet in .458 - you must be referring to the 250 gr FTX pistol bullet in .452. The FTX rifle bullet is 325 gr.

That would be in essence a marble.

thanks fischer, didn't realize that. Well i suppose you could handload the 325 up to 2200 or so FPS.

I nice 200 or 250 grain bullet pushed really fast would effectively turn the .45-70 into a 400 yard gun w/o having to use a range finder

Not really. A bullet of that diameter at that weight would have the ballistic properties of a brick. It would shed velocity quick enough that I doubt it would be useably flatter at that range, maybe up close but not that far away.

Once it got there, it would have a hard time penetrating.

I think Hornady gummy-tip is gonna be your best bet for long range in a .45-70 with a flatter trajectory, but I would still prefer a heavier bullet at 400 yards. That's just me.

Proper range estimation is going to be the key to shooting a .45-70 at longer ranges, due to the trajectory, but it can be done.

The 45-70 isn't a 400 yd gun without a range finder with any bullet.
It gives its' best performance with bullets from 4-500 grs at any yardage, and those heavier bullet stand a better chance of getting to the target than the liteweights.
Go get a 45-70 and grab yourself a handful of actual experience.....

Barnes makes a 250gr TSX.

Shooting a 45-70 to 400 without accurate range data, and a means of applying accurate corrections to your sight, is not a realistic expectation.

All of the above. Added, that is why the OLD BP 45-70 rounds with a 405 or 500 gain slug WAS so accurate and effective at very long range. BP is about the most consistent propellant anywhere. The sights and range data have been doped out for 137 years. They shoot well (ask the BP competitiors as the buff hunters are all long gone) hit like a freight train.

Disagree, a MODERN .45-70 like my 1895 marlin can handle much faster speed bullets than the factory 405 remington cartridges. I have a box of buffalore bore 405 grainers @2000fps and a box of 300 grain hollow points @2400. The 300 grain hollow points drop 2" at 150 yards and 8" at 200 yards. If I got a 250 grain bullet or 200 grain bullet and pushed it to 2500-3000fps it should be flat out to 200-300, maybe not 400, but it'll definately make it a 300 yard gun w/o rangefinder

Bullspit.You need to gather yourself a handful of practical experience.

I've used one (M1985 in 45-70) for years.

Physics is Physics....ballistics is ballistics.

That light a bullet in that caliber ain't gonna fly good. it'll go out there and fall flat on it's face. And, once it hits something, it's not going to do a great job, as far as penetrating.

You would be better served with a heavier bullet, plain and simple.

You are going to have to know the range, and have a good sighting system. For a fact.

The 45-70 is not a 400 yard MPBR rifle.

It is quite capable of taking game at that range, if'n you know how to do your job.

If you are trying to eliminate range estimation, you are looking at the wrong caliber.

If yer mind's made up, (and it seems like it is bent on disregarding some very good advice) then have at it, and post a picture of the first moose you drop with one shot at 400 yards without accurate range data, and without sight corrections. Hey, I'm giving you lots of room for error -- a moose is a BIG target and easy to hit.

I exaggerated 400 yards, I really am aiming to get it to stay flat at 200-300 yards which I think is definately doable with a 250 grain bullet.

If the 250 grain bullet is way too light then why does barnes make it's TSX (TRIPLE SHOCK X) in .458 for the .45-70?? This bullet is 100% copper, retains 100% of it's weight, and is a hollow point that opens up and creates razor edges that helpt it penetrate, and it's somehow elongated to the lenght of a 300 grain bullet.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice guys hope some of you folks out there didn't sweat too much getting pissed at me haha

I love ruffing up some feathers

I will create a high power 250 grain load for my .45-70 that will shoot flat and it will work.

And the .45-70 is .458" or bigger . My Marlin .45-70 likes .460" bullets .

God bless
Wyr

Are the figures you quoted in a previous post the advertised factory figures, or they data you have arrived at by shooting? I run a 300 grain Speer UniCor at a little over 2200 fps, and the 300 grain data you supplied is pretty close to what I have found.

The TSX is longer due to copper being lighter than lead.

The 250 grain TSX is still going to fly like it has the brakes on. It'll go like hell out of the muzzle and slow down quick from there. And I think it will work great out to 200 yards, and it's penetrating properties will be very similar to the better 300 grain cup-n-core bullets. I've shot a bunch of those, and harvested deer with them, but I would be hesitant to use them on anything too much bigger at longer ranges than the aforementioned 200 yards. I'd want more weight. But, what you are trying to do should work for deer or black bear.

Having said that, someone will come on with posts and pictures of huge animals killed at long range with 300 grain bullets, with through and through penetration.

An interesting read is the SandyHook tests.

Most Marlins seem to like the .460". You running Beartooths?

Hey Vic

A couple of my shooting buddies and I would take the 45-70s out with 445 grain cast bullets and walk the bullets out to 400 and 500 yards shooting rocks and such.
Once we got the Lyman reciever site adjusted we hit the rocks with regularity. Yes, it was like shooting a morter and between launch and impact we had time for a sip of Coke and maybe lighting a smoke. Yes, it's a bit of a stretch, it does take a while for the bullet to get there.
I may have to go do that this fall at the shooting range.

Jim

someone from another website gave me some barnes loading data for the 250 and 300 grain triple shock X.

says there are 2 loads with the 250 grain bullet that can get it up to 2550fps and just over 2610fps for the strongest safest load in a marlin. They also have a load for the 300 grainer that has it going up to 2440fps... that would put it at almost 4,000ft pounds

Whatever you do junior, don't buy a chronograph, not sure you've got the mental ability to handle the dissappointment.

Polska, If you're determined to really hotrod the 45-70, I'd suggest you get a Ruger #1 (for your personal safety).

+10 to MM, a 45-70 is not a 458 Lott, but trying to do so will get you a cane and a nice dog to lead you around.

How is pushing a 250 grain bullet at 2600 fps HOTRODDING... the Barnes reloading manual says it's SAFE FOR MARLINS.

you guys are all retarded, you all have no lives all you do is bully people with good ideas because your jealous you didn't think of it, and your wives are so ugly you can't even look at them when you wake up in the morning.

Run on, son! We're too stoopid for the likes of you.

hehe look out there shootist, he's a testy lil troll , you'll be getting threatenin pm's shortly.... lol

Hmmmm seems our testy lil Troll Greg, has been spreadin his wealth of knowledge around some......
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30438&p=374125#p374125

You know, you are correct. That is such a new cartridge (and I've only been handloading for 30 or so years), that it's possible that that base hasn't been covered.

We should let you continue to develop this new and untried cartridge, and establish it's outer bounds.

Please keep me abreast.

My wife can beat up your boyfriend...

That's mean . . . . . . funny, but mean.

Gotta love a thread that starts out like this . . . . .



Anyone else see a problem there?

I'm all for the spirit of discovery, just be careful.....cuz schitt happens. Overload a good boltgun or Ruger #1, and you'll likely split the barrel before the receiver/lugs fail. Overload a Marlin, and it can go quite differently.





Have fun!

Let us know what you learn.

Pretty graphic, Shane. Course, it'll never happen to him.

Yes, they display excellent gas venting capability...

Ok, you can't just post a picture like that and not tell us what it took to blow it up! That wasn't a 250 gr bullet at 2500, unless he tried to get there with Unique...

And my wife is not ugly...pretty cute actually.

thats not even your gun, how do you know what was even in it. I saw that all over the internet. the guy could have tried loading a .458 win mag for all we know

I saw it on Marlin Owners a while back. Don't recall the specifics, but as you can see it got fairly sporty for the shooter.

threatening? i'm not threatening you. i'm pissed off that you are making fun of me and talking down to me and calling me junior. Thats very disrespectful.

I'm not your son, [bleep]. For someone who quotes the Holy Bible maybe you should go back and study the teaching of Christ and check that ego of yours.

ok so you saw it on marlin owners, but you don't know the specifics and you are trying to scare me with a picture that who knows what was even in it.

testy little bastard when he's hiding behind a computer screen.

Yea you should see how testy I am in real life. You wouldn't be saying that to me in person thats for sure. You'd be running away with your tail under your legs and pissing yourself like the coward you are

Do your thing then. Just be advised if you end up paying the "Stupid Tax", it could be costly.

little i'm 285 pounds and can deadlift 800 pounds? I'm not the one who's hiding, your the one who's making comments behind a computer screen. Come to new york i'll take you on. I'm not scared.

I'm done with this thread, if you wanna enjoy mocking me and being condescending without even understanding what i'm trying to get at and jumping to conclusions that i'm a "troll" then go ahead, knock yourself out. This is a waste of time. What I asked for was advice and instead got ego-maniacs writing paragraphs trying to lecture me and call me junior. MAybe you all need to go and pray to the Lord for mercy on your souls laden with sin. Especially those quoting the Bible.

Bye...

bye bye take care and be sure and Write when you find word.....

One last thing.

Highlighted in bold is a little different than you represent in your posts, such as your posting at Paco Kelly's and your first post when you didn't get the answer from the bunch here.

We offered you advice, from about 120 or so years of combined handloading experience(of which you have none), and you flat refused to accept it. You also stated you liked to ruffle feathers. Well, SONNY, ya came at the wrong bunch. I can ruffle with the best of them, and so far, I have seen, not only from myself, but the others, a large amount of restraint. It won't stay that way.

If anyone is egomaniacal, I would have to say you're having somewhat of a problem in that area. You were the first and so far, only one to exhibit an extremely juvenile attitude. You don't know a damn thing and you aren't willing to listen. Go blow your damn self up.

Ohhhh.....and don't let the door hit you.......JUNIE.

The 444 Marlin would be the more sensible choice if the goal is to push 200gr bullets as fast as reasonably possible in a big bore levergun.

A 200gr Barnes XPB could probabaly make 2600-2700 fps at SAAMI pressure, from a 22" bbl. Should be able to get a max PBR of around 225-250 yards.

you need to grow up bro

I swear to youin the Barnes reloading manual it says the maximum safe pressure for their 250 grain TSX is 2610fps. for a MARLIN. IT's not gonna blow apart i'll be fine.

you think yours so important that i'm gonna lose sleep over you

I've got Barnes Manual Number 3.

Fastest Marlin load listed for the 250gr XFN is 2153 fps via 57gr IMR 4895.

OK, I see Barnes data at 2609 fps here:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/45-70Marlin1895Web.pdf

I wouldn't try pushing up towards 3000 fps though.

Me? grow up?

Go back through the posts and see who shows immaturity.

Maybe I just need to learn to suffer fools better.

yea no 3,000 is way too fast for a .45-70 i don't even think you could do that even in a ruger 1. Told you, i'm not a liar

all i wanted to do was take 200-250 grain bullet and push it to 2500-3000 fps and the uproar I got for that comment is ridiculous. all i asked was if this is possible and if someone has done it before, I didn't ask for lectures and naysayers and general nastiness. Maybe you should look at your posts.

Barnes' website max load for the 250gr TSX FN in a Marlin with 24" bbl lists AA 1680, 57.5gr, 2609 fps, at max pressure of 42,000 lbs-psi.

Out of curiosity, I ran that powder/bullet combo through Quickload:

Based on those calcs, 2250 fps would be the velocity where I would stop adding powder (in a Marlin). That should be around 40K lbs-psi.

I disagree with the "uproar" part. You were told that it was not a good pursuit, but I don't see where anybody was out of the way with you. You responded, when the answers were not what you wanted to hear, in a very juvenile fashion. YOU were the first to throw a fit and threaten to take your toys and go home.

How do you cope in your day-to-day life if those responses were an "uproar"?

As I said earlier, there is a number of years of combined experience that gave you a very honest answer. That cartridge has been around a day or two, and has been played with by those that have answered you, and it's limits and abilities have been discovered a number of years ago. You gave a clue to your depth of knowledge by stating one possible use would be Home Defense. I'm glad I'm not a neighbor if you are going to discharge a weapon with the penetrative potential of that rifle in your home.

Just accept that what you are trying to do has been tried before, numerous times by many people (the repeatable results makes the statements here valid), and there are better tools for what you are trying to accomplish. The 45-70 is good at what it does, and it has potential as a long range hammer, but not in the fashion you seek. Accept their experience and findings.

It's just going to take a bigger case to reach the velocities you want in that caliber. I suggest the .458 Lott.

Personally, when I want to reach out to 400 yards or so, I start with a 30 caliber cartridge and go down. 6.5mm to 7mm is a real good spot to try for real efficient results.

As it is, I have found the 45-70 suitable for 200 yards using it in the fashion you want to, that is, high-speed light-for-caliber bullets and without any means of accurately determining range. This did include a sight upgrade.

It's simple physics, and you are not going to change it. You will simply discover what has been found out many times before. Hopefully before you need the cane and dog mentioned before, or an artificial limb. I really wouldn't want to see that happen, but if you insist.

Forrest Gump had a saying for that, or rather his mother did.

The lyman 48 manual show the best velocity out of that Barnes bullet at about 2150 with maximum loads and the pressures are right at the limit...
They made the 458 win mag for a reason....

When this first started, I ran the Barnes data through a trajectory calculator.
The Barnes 250grTSX,(which has a BC of .136) leaving the muzzle at 2600fps has a total drop of 93.75" at 400yds. Even at 300yds it has a total drop of 41.68".

Welcome aboard.

Man, the things I miss when I don't check this forum often enough...


maddog

Since Louisiana opened their primative weapons season to include certain centerfire rifles, I've been pursuing the ideal set up. On the allowed list is the John Moses Browning designed 1885 single shot rifle. I found a good used Browning BPCR w/o the vernier BP sights and adapted it to modern 45-70 loads. I mounted a Burris Fullfield II 4.5-14x42 with Ballistic reticle. My best load, so far, is 250 gr. Barnes TSX FN bullets over 53 gr. Vv 120. This load chrono's at 2,500 fps from the 30" barrel. It shoots around 1" at 100 and it just so happens that the reticle marks correspond perfectly to 150, 200 and 250 yds, and with the pointed top of the post, dead on at 300 yds. So, by sighting on the top of the duplex part of the vertical wire, I can put three rounds on a pie plate (approx 5" group) at 300 yds. Thus, this 12+ pound 1885 single shot BPCR is a bonafied 300 yd. 45-70 "primative weapon" per Louisiana regulations. Really, not that primative and deadly to anything in the path of that gaping, hollow point Barnes bullet.

Dirtfarmer

So... what about that 450 Marlin?

Oh boy, Yet Another Internet Tough Guy...

Ain't nothing more pathetic than someone trying to act all badass over the Internet.

From a theoretical standpoint, a 250 grain Barnes XFN driven to 2560 fps (50 fps less for a 22" barrel) will only yield an 8" diameter (most hunters use 6" for deer which would reduce the MPBR) maximum point black range of 228 yards with a zero of 197.7 yards. At 228 yards the projectile will be down to a velocity of 1330 fps and have 955 ft. lbs. of energy. Marginal or inadequate for anything larger than deer. If it is at all windy this load is literally blown all over the place. With a relatively light 10 mph wind you would have about 18.5 inches of drift at 228 yards to contend with. Trying to make the 45-70 into a flat shooter beyond 200 yards is likely to be at best an effort in futility and at worst add to the number of wounded game in the field.

Up close and personal, they shine like the brightest star in the sky. If ya want a 200-300 yard rifle, go 308, 30-06 or similar.

Hello Shootists! I do believe that the Hornady Leverevolution ammo can make that rifle a 200 yard weapon for deer. I had both my .444 and 45/70 down at the range shooting some of this rather high dollar ammo. The ammo is good stuff for deer anyway out to 200 yards.

Now I have found several mistakes in the Barnes reloading manual, I for one just don't trust their figures. However, I do use the Lyman, new Hornady and new Nosler reloading manuals.

Home defence? Ye gods. Where on earth (or possibly not) does this fellow live that he needs a dangerously overclocked 45-70 for home defence? Wherever it is, I definitely don't want to go there- at least without a tank, mostly to protect me from the overshoot from his 45-70.

It may all be immaterial anyway as Mr "Damn-the-torpedoes" Polska may end up in hospital, wrapped up like the anonymous "soldier in white" in Catch-22. Hell of a way to learn reloading.

To quote Einstain,
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I am not sure about the former."

In all fairness, however, (and because its Christmas) I hope he has paused a while to reconsider. "Repent, brother, repent, before it's too late!

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Stuart