Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 1895 Winchester .405

Considering an 1895 Winchester in .405 anyone have any thoughts on the accuracy, recoil, and successes in the field with the rifle and cartridge?

Compared the ballistics with the 45/70 cartridge. The book I checked listed the .405 recoil factor as less then the 45/70? Not much appears on www research for the 1895 .405, so looking to the experts for info.

Thanks
Have a great day.

Mike

Mr. Mikem,
Though we are not experts, we really like ours. The 300gr bullets have slightly better sectional density than the .45-70; as you probably know. Can't tell any difference in recoil, to speak of, regarding a hot loaded 300gr .45-70 vs 300gr .405 Win.
Best Wishes

I will not discourge you on your endevor to possibly go with the 1895. I will say however that many who pen articles about it and the comparison of it to other big bore cartridges in its class, do not particularly like it.

First, its the firearm. 1895 has what some say is an ill balance and bulkiness to it (long barrel). Most who have shot it always comment on the felt recoil, not the actual ft-lb number, but the ergos of the stock and forarm and lever.

Second, others comment on the poor design of the cartridge and its efficiency. This takes into account its odd caliber size in conjunction with its performance per grains of powder. Consider that the 444 Marlin will push the same weight bullet at the same speed and is quite a bit shorter with less capacity. Now I acknowledge that the 405 Win can shoot spitzers, however most bullet designs for it are round nosers to semi-spitzer types, thus negating any real BC and distance advantage over the 444 Marlin. Both are 200-225 yard guns period. And both are suitable for the same range of game. Except the 444 Marlin comes in a more shootable, fast handling., lighter rifle, which kicks less and gives the same bang for the buck.

Lastly, the 405 Win is not in the same class of killing power as the 45-70, especially when the 45-70 is in a fast handling tube feed lever loaded with 400-600 grain loads. Sectional Density is an archaic determiner these days pertaining to penetration. With the advanced bullets available today, we have solids, bonded cores, GC hard casts, etc, for the 45-70. Loaded hot with any of the premium designs with 400 grains and up it will give 5 ft of penetration in big animals. So much for SD.

If it is a historical itch you wish to fill, by all means fill it. But if its performance and versatility in the field you seek, the 444 Marlin or 45-70 Gov in a tube feed lever are much more appealing, to me any way.

Take Care,
rossi

I don't agree that the 405 is any less of a cartridge that the 444 or 45/70.

I have no experience with the 444, but I currently own a 1895/405 and owned a 1895 Marlin 45/70.

Rossi, I am not sure what loads you are looking at but neither the 444 or 45/70 push loads as fast as the 405. My new Nosler manual shows a Ruger NO 1 45/70 load pushing a 300 grain bullet 2282 FPS and Buffalo Bore has a 300 grain 444 load advertised @ 2150 FPS. Hodgdon lists a 405 300 grain bullet @ 2404 FPS. That is 122 FPS faster than the 45/70 and 254 FPS faster than the 444.

I will say the the 45/70 will throw the heavier bullet (over 400 grains) somewhat faster. The 405 is no slouch. The 405 can be loaded with hardcast, bonded, conventional and solid bullets.

Oh and by the way, both my 1895's kick like mules!

4x4,

I never said it was less of a cartridge than the 444 Marlin, they are in fact ballistically equal and rated on optimal game weight tables equally. A 444 Marlin loaded properly will push a jacketed 300 at 2200 fps and even faster if loaded in a Win 94 Big Bore. This is out of a fast handling 20 inch spout. 330 GC cast could be driven to 2300 gr. + and 355 gr. to 2100 fps. Either way, the 405 has nothiing on the 444 Marlin in terms of its ability to kill big game. You may squeeze another 100-150 fps out of the long barreled 405, but the 444 Marlin opens up a larger hole. I'll take the larger hole.

As far as the 45-70, you may try to convince yourself that the 405 is somehow equal, but its not and no amount of nostalgic use in Africa will make it so. More surface area on those SP bullets combined with more weight equates to expansion over an 1.25" and massive wound channels, not to mention penetration par excellence.

As far as using the Ruger No. 1, go load some 45-70s with a 500 grain Hornady solid roundnose at 1875 fps. See how well the 405, 300 grain measures up to that in penetration.

I've got no axe to grind here, I just feel the 405 is antiquated in design and in field use. its just not my cup of tea; however it may trip someone elses trigger and thats fine. Its a big tent we all live under.

Take Care,
rossi

If you're recoil sensitive the 405 ain't the rifle you want. I shoot the 95 in 405 and a 45-70 sharps. The sharps with 500 gr bullets is more comfortable in an extended range session.
I like the ballistics deliverd by the 405 when loaded with upper limit handloads. 2400 fps is quite possible with the 300 gr bullets, and 1900 is reported by Hogdons as quite possible with the woodleigh 400 gr .
My rifle will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yds with its favorite handloads of 57 grs of Rx 12 and Northforks 300 gr ss .411 bullet.
I find the 95 more comfortable to carry on a long days hunt than any of the Marlin rifles.
Winchester introduced it as the most powerful leveraction cartridge , Hornady says its still that way, and I am a big fan of it.
If you want a powerful, accurate big bore levergun its my opinion the Win. 95 in 405 won't dissappoint you.

Say 4x4, I got to wondering if you were able to 405 your elk or not?

Thanks for the information on the .405 1895. Still undecided on the rifle. I have an 1895 in 30-06 that is a very good rifle, accurate with factory loads and carries well for a day in the woods.

But, the 45/70 ballistics makes for a tough comparison with the .405 ballistics.

hmmm, the .405 has something about it.

thanks

M

If you look close at the ballistics tables they'll soon tell you the 405 shoots flatter farther and hits harder than anything you can sanely run thru a 45-70 levergun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Plus if you want low recoil mild blasting loads a load can be cooked up with any of the 41 mag pistol bullets.

Mikem, you might want to take a look over at z-hat.com. They can take that '06 and convert it to a .411 Hawk. They show 300 gr bullets at 2500 fps, and 400's at 2159.

Rossi,

I have to say again that I have never owned a 444 Marlin. But from the information I have it is not near the 405 ballistically. Even when both are shot out of 24" barrels.

You are right the 444 is bigger. But, I don't think a game animal will notice the difference between a .411 and .429.

The 45/70 is a round that I know. I have used it and reloaded for it. I used 350 GR Hornady @ about 1950 FPS. I have never loaded 500 GR bullets into anything. Shoot, 1875 FPS is approaching 458 Winchester power. I will admit that the 405 is no 458 Winchester.

A little debate is good!

Ranch,

NO, I did not use mine to shoot an Elk. My Elk hunting season turned to crap. Was all packed up to go to Ennis and my hunting buddy cancelled-the night of. Long story, involved a woman and menopause.

4x4 that stinks, but there's always next year. And spring bear is just around the corner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

4x4,

You are right, debate is good. Please help me understand the logic in your statement however. Your info says the 444 Marlin is not near the 405 Win ballistically.

444 Marlin, 300 grain jacketed load out of a 20" Winchester 94 big bore at 2300 fps.

ME: 3525 ft-lbs
Thornily Relative Stopping Power: 187
Taylor KO: 42

444 Marlin's use on big game is rated for optimum game up to elk, moose, grizz, brown bear, leopard and lion.


405 Win, 300 grain jacketed load out of a 24" 1895 Winchester at 2400 fps. I'll give you the extra 100 fps even though all factory loads are at 2200 fps just like the 444 Marlin's 2200 fps.

ME: 3,800 ft-lbs
Thornily Relative Stopping Power: 190
Taylor KO: 42

405 Win's use on big game is rated for optimum game up to elk, moose, grizz, brown bear, leopard and lion.


--Please help me understand how the 444 Marlin's ballistics are not near that of the 405 Win? And how come all the experts say it is?

Take Care,
rossi

Rossi assuming that velocity can be achieved with the 444 and keep the gun together, you need to look at a point somewhere beyond the muzzle to see how bullet shape effects down range trajectoy. Once you get to 100 yds and beyond the 405 maintains a pretty good lead.

Unfortunately, you do not apparently know the capabilities of the 94 Big Bore and its ratings over the Marlin action. 280 CorBons are routinely shot out of the Marlin with 22-inch barrel at 2310 fps. The 444 Marlin is loaded in the Marlin action to about 44,000 psi. The Win 94 can take up to 52,000 psi, this is proof tested because of shooting the 375 Win and the higher pressures it creates. Don't get hung up on the old garbage that everyone else in the past has done by thinking the 444 is somehow merely a 100 yard cartridge. This is hog wash. There is absolutely no real world trajectory that separates the 405 and the 444 Marlin. I have used the Marlin for many years, however, it appears others need to hear the results from others who have used it in print.

Layne Simpson in Sept of 2003 took a tundra caribou at 247 yards with a jacketed 280 grain Swift A-frame over 52 grains of H322 in a Marlin rifle. This yielded 2250fps. Gee, I thought the 444 Marlin was a brush gun good for only 100 yards, well according to you it is.

You tell me in real world figures how much flatter the trajectory of a 405 Win is over a 444 Marlin at 250 yards with a 300 grain bullet with a 175 yard zero.

I can tell you this, it is indistiguishable as far as any difference in holdover or ME at that distance. Maybe you guys know something the rest of us don't know about the mythical ballistics of the 405 Win. Please let me in on the secret, I'm willing to learn.

rossi

As far as I can tell noone has said the 444 is a bad or a short range cartridge. But it is no 405.
There have been several posts here pointing out the ballistic advantage of the 405 (no matter how slight) over the 444. You say you're willing to take a look and learn something but I'm afraid your bilgerence has prevented you from doing that.
I'm glad you like the 444, I do like it to. After several years of studying on the 405 and after the last few years of actually shooting the thing I've come to the conclusion its way underrated and misunderstood by those who haven't used it much the same as the 444.

I'm not trying to be beligerant in any way, I am simply asking you guys to show me compared ballistics. The so called bullet shape advantage is somewhat of a hoax as the 405 Win 300 grain spitzer type bullet does not offer a great BC.

One need to look only to the best of those designs from Hornady, which offers one of the best 405 Win Spitzers. Compare the ballistics on their charts to their FN design and you will find that over 200 yards the spitzer shoots 0.4" flatter over 200 yards and 0.88 inches flatter over 300 yards.

Both are launched at 2200 fps.

Again I ask, what real world advantage is that over a 444 Marlin FN in the field?

I have stated from the beginning that they are equal in all measures. You and others keep telling me that somehow the 405 Win has such greater ballistic potential over the 444 Marlin, but you do not supply any reasoning, just conjecture with no proof.

I do not mean to offend, I just want real world proof.

rossi

Well maybe you could help me out and direct me to some tested data that shows the 300 gr bullet doing 2200 out of the 444. I can't find anything that comes terribly close to that.

I will post some loadings from the so-called experts.

Paco Kelly and his work from "Reloading the 444 and 375". Again there are differences between the pressure limits of an 1895 Marlin action and 94 Win Big Bore. You won't find these in any standard loading manual.

From the Marlin 95 w/22 inch barrel:

Speer 300 gr w/52 gr. ReL#7, yields 2335v/3632ME
Hornady 300 gr. XTP w/52 gr. ReL#7, yields 2341v/3651ME
Speer 300 gr w/59 gr. H335 yields 2292v/3500ME
Hornady 300 gr. XTP w/59 gr. H355, yields 2333v/3626ME

In the 94 Win BB:
Keith HC 250 gr. w/52 gr. 4198, yields 2660v/3928ME
LBT Cast Performance 330 gr.HC yields 2262v/3750ME

Kelly's loads in the 95 Marlin are at the top end and he refers to them as "warm top load". On the Win 94 he calls the Keith 250 gr. an "excellent load" and the 330 LBT a "Heavy Load"


From Layne Simpson's Range work in a Marlin 95 w/22-inch barrel:

Swift A Frame 300 gr. w/48 gr. AA1680, yields 2221v
Factory 280 gr. CorBon at 2344v
Factory 305 FMJ CorBon at 2160v

In the cast bullet field, Marshall Stanton has pushed 330 grain gas checks out of the Marlin 95 at 2250v, 355 grains at 2150v. See the Beartooth website.

I think you would acknowledge that the 444 Marlin runs neck and neck with the 405 Win as far as ballistics and optimum game weight use on animals. Both Paco Kelly and Marshall Stanton, who may be the premier handloaders of the 444 Marlin believe the 330-355 grain HC GC bullets of today would kill any of the thick skin DG. I suspect the CorBon 305 FMJ load would do the same.

Again, I am saying the 405 Win and 444 Marlin are equal in every respect, no disrespect to anyone was intended.

Take Care,
rossi

Spirited information exchange. Still on the fence. My 1886 45/70 is one of my favorite rifles, the 45/70 trajectory may not be 'flat' by any means. But a proven cartridge just as the .444. Just challenging to obtain data on the .405 ballistics and near term 1895 .405 rifle reviews/results.

The 1895 .405 definetely has my attention.

Thank for the info.