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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1 |
I have not used or tested a 9mm in a long time. With all of the new ammo out I thought it was time to give it another go, because of post like this one Yeah, I know. People aren't made of sand and expansion reduces penetration. I've shot a lot of handgun bullets into varying substances and I've found that reliable expansion does not exist below about 1,000 fps, no matter what the test medium, although I've never tested any in balistic gel or on humans. I've shot cap and ball .451 RBs that expanded nicely in sand and I've seen a lot of HPs that wouldn't expand in anything. I shot one of these XTPs in clay cat litter. It did not expand at all and penetrated about 8". What these pics do prove is that the XTP expands better in sand than the Remington JHP. I also shot 2 liter pop bottles filled with water with both these rounds. The XTPs busted them pretty good. The Remingtons had the same effect as FMJs. Also, I set a piece of cardboard behind the bottles to see how much expansion I was getting. The holes in the cardboard matched the bullets pictured above. I purchased a box of Fiocchi loaded with the Hornady 124 grain XTP/JHP. Yes , they do expand well, but not excessively and they penetrate rather well. In the past excellent expansion meant less than optimal penetration and excellent penetration meant less than stellar wound channels. So I felt a lack of love for the 9mm. Well that seems to have changed the Fiocchi loads with the 124 grain XTP does appear to give good penetration coupled with reliable expansion. I intend to do more testing, but the early results look promising
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500 |
When the only 9mm's out there were full sized guns I could not feel any love for a 9mm. Now that we have them in 15oz pocket pistols and new ammo developments I can see a great niche. Been following Alan Jones' reports on new ammo developments and it looks like the Horny Critical Defense stuff is the best thing going right now. Going to give some a try out in my Kel Tech pocket gun and the wifes Colt Cobra 38.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2003
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jwp, Did you happen to chrono those loads and what length barrel were you using?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1 |
jwp, Did you happen to chrono those loads and what length barrel were you using? I tried to, but for some reason I could not get a reading. I tried several different caliber trying to get a reading, but all I got was error Will try again as time permits These 124 grain XTP's exited 3 one gal milk jugs of water. I asked a couple of guys that are familar with this sort of testing how many jugs would it take to catch one and both answered 2. Well 3 wasn't enough. I do have 1 recovered bullet and I liked the expansion. I will get more jugs and see how many it takes, but 3 jugs is not bad at all
Last edited by jwp475; 10/29/10.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 21,959
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2006
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I have not used or tested a 9mm in a long time. With all of the new ammo out I thought it was time to give it another go, because of post like this one Yeah, I know. People aren't made of sand and expansion reduces penetration. I've shot a lot of handgun bullets into varying substances and I've found that reliable expansion does not exist below about 1,000 fps, no matter what the test medium, although I've never tested any in balistic gel or on humans. I've shot cap and ball .451 RBs that expanded nicely in sand and I've seen a lot of HPs that wouldn't expand in anything. I shot one of these XTPs in clay cat litter. It did not expand at all and penetrated about 8". What these pics do prove is that the XTP expands better in sand than the Remington JHP. I also shot 2 liter pop bottles filled with water with both these rounds. The XTPs busted them pretty good. The Remingtons had the same effect as FMJs. Also, I set a piece of cardboard behind the bottles to see how much expansion I was getting. The holes in the cardboard matched the bullets pictured above. I purchased a box of Fiocchi loaded with the Hornady 124 grain XTP/JHP. Yes , they do expand well, but not excessively and they penetrate rather well. In the past excellent expansion meant less than optimal penetration and excellent penetration meant less than stellar wound channels. So I felt a lack of love for the 9mm. Well that seems to have changed the Fiocchi loads with the 124 grain XTP does appear to give good penetration coupled with reliable expansion. I intend to do more testing, but the early results look promising JWP, I would sure be interested in hearing about your final results. 
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
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I'm pushing 147gr XTP's at 1100 fps in my Glock17.
I'm loading Unique, QL calc's pressure about 37K. That's about halfway between standard 9mm, and 9mm+P.
Power Pistol would probably be a better powder, but since I have a bunch of Unique, that's what I'm using.
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Joined: May 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
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Anybody ever tried blue dot?
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anybody ever tried blue dot? I tried it a long time ago, before I ever had a chronograph, so I can't give any velocities for those loads.They were using the old Speer 100 gr. and 125s, from the Speer #9, IIRC. But, big BUT, Herco and HS-6 were better, snappier loads using the same bullets. Herco gives great velocities but meters like mud, HS-6 is a ball powder and meters like water. Both have similar burning rates in a 9mm, generally speaking, and give about the same speeds with the same charges. I'd go with either of those powders over Blue Dot, given a choice.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2006
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I'm pushing 147gr XTP's at 1100 fps in my Glock17.
I'm loading Unique, QL calc's pressure about 37K. That's about halfway between standard 9mm, and 9mm+P.
Power Pistol would probably be a better powder, but since I have a bunch of Unique, that's what I'm using.
Shane, That ain't bad at all. I don't currently load for my G19, but if I did, I would sure give the XTP a whirl.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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~ Well, 'Ballistic Experts' sure do know their stuff, and certainly know 'stuff' moreso (than I do) and the average potential 'maniacal' bad-guy encountered threat.
But, If I ever needed to to defend my self with a handgun - against some threatening armed 'human' threat ...
I would be more than grateful to have a lowly 9MM Pistol in my hand, even loaded with only my Winchester White Box Target Loads.
Heck, I'd even settle for my Beretta 'Tomcat' 32 acp in a pinch. Otherwise, the only weapon I ALWAYS 'carry' ... is my jack-knife.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Herco is THE powder in 9mm. I try to get at least 1250 fps out of my handloads.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
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JWP-475.....I did test the 9mm Luger a year ago with "self-defense" ammo of several brands. We used soaking wet newspaper, gives better indication of wound channel etc.
Brands of bullets used, were the Hornady, Cor-Bon, Pow - R -Ball, Double Tap, Winchester and Federal. The 9mm Luger caliber with Cor-Bon did very well, as did the Pow R Ball ammo, which was the highest in velocity. Ths ammo gives a wound channel inside the wet news print, like a bomb exploded inside the target. I traded for a Kahr 9mm and I have Cor-Bon and Pow R Ball loaded in the magazine clip.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1 |
What about the penetration? Expansion iis fine as long as penetration is adequate
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
For what it is worth the Speer 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot Plus P is the load i use in my Kahr P9. I have never had to shoot another human but believe this load would get the job done.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500 |
Same load I am carrying in my Kel Tech. Hope every one of those rounds goes unfired.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,090
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,090 |
Jwp475....Now as I remember, the 9mm Luger with Cor-Bon self-defense loads penetrated some 5.75 inches into that soaking wet (dripping wet) newpaper that was bundled tightly together.
The .45acp 200grn self-defense ammo did like 7 inches and the 230 grn hardball did 7.75 inches. The .40 cal with self-defense Pow R Ball ammo did 6.25 inches but made a bigger wound channel.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 Likes: 1 |
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
Whatever ballistic problems the 9x19 Luger had have been fixed. The Cartridge is ONE HUNDRED YEARS OLD!
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
Gun Tests magazine did some 9mm ammo testing not long ago. They also confered with some that have actually used some of this in gunfights. They gave high marks to both Speer's Gold Dot bullet loads and Hornady's XTP's.
Yes, the 9mm Lugar round has come a long way thanks to the development of good, reliable, expanding bullets. E
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
Ask a Paramedic sometime if someone shot with a 9mm is any less dead than being shot with a 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, or any other common handgun cartridges.
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