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Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy. Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.
The US-S 570gr slug, with locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel. At 2000 fps in smooth bore.
Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300, 2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds; BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds. It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like 12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.
This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds. And holding tighter groups at longer ranges. He kept velocity above the speed of sound further down range......Ed
Ed Hubel
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Got asked about slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads, do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.
Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.
Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen. About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength. The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like.. If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length. If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine. RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load. Don't leave air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals like in plastic cases..Ed
Ed Hubel
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I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi. They are the size for the 4bores that are about .950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot. I will test them with a light buckshot loads of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each. Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces. In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga. The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed
Ed Hubel
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When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread, I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one. I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight, and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and we have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. This will be my only bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 12-14,000 ft lbs. Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet. WooHoo.ED
Last edited by hubel458; 09/12/10.
Ed Hubel
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Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total 1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr. A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case. Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases. Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll outrun trex.2nd pic... ED
Ed Hubel
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In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok. More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600 with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300 gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10 and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the 585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case showing how strong brass is.Ed
Ed Hubel
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We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets. Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture. We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do 10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has, with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells. It is hollowbased and 750gr.Also use the same wadcup for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels. Another experimenter has got a bunch of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do them about any time you want.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed, you're close to having more fun than the law allows...be careful....
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Yes I try not to blow myself up. Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer. Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr over 2200. Cases take many reloads with minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good and the slower powders get the velocity without the hard shock to cases, compared to fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings factory loads work in the gun also. Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and 900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores. Will let everyone know when he is ready to make a few for shooters.Ed
Ed Hubel
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I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock. They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94. But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel. I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.
That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300" wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger. The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end. In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed
Ed Hubel
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More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga, lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me. Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to 600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel. Which is why I started research after getting a CBC, as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel. Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough. And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass 20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at 1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking 20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more. Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED
Ed Hubel
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More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr. He will make them for a buck each. Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com) Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs. For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads. Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X. For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that will make the overall projectile more front heavy. Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug, like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED
Ed Hubel
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I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier, shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in their new catalog. We have tested some and one gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed. Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed
Ed Hubel
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The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put together using different slugs and wads. The object is 60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores that in the reloading process we can get more power also. Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads, with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug. Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect. It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs. Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works. Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs. And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups. Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Some wonder if only trying for foster slug accuracy at 200 feet or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups, with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long. The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies. And most of these combinations work in brass cases with thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed, you ever give any consideration to loading a sub caliber finned dart in a sabot?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I've never had any to try. That would be a smaller version of the sub caliber tank rounds used now at high speeds. Would they be suitable for longer ranges maybe?Ed
Ed Hubel
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That was where I was heading with it. Don't know how they would be made other than a swage or very creative work with machine tools. The Army uses variations in their flechette rockets (2.75" FFAR)but I doubt they are suitable due to very small size. Perhaps a larger problem would be fabricating the sabot. The Abrams round uses aluminum as I understand it and I seriously doubt plastic would survive the velocity at the top end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette \ http://weapons.travellercentral.com/ammo/shotgun_flechette.htmlFlechettes in a shotgun shell are not new, but a somewhat heavier version w/sabot would be interesting. Thinking somewhere around .27-.30 caliber at the major diameter and perhaps 2" long. A wasp waist profile has better supersonic drag profile than straight sides.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of wood blocks up to 12" through.
20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup. Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base.. Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through 6" block of wood easy/
Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800, all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going. In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood. going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.
In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800 fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad. I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga slugs to test later..
12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12" wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC case in NEF.
Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to collect or look at, let me know. 750gr slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun. Soon have barrel in PH and put the real speed to it. About 33-3400.
Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action. Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer. Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed
Ed Hubel
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