Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Black bears...what rifle/caliber?

Guys, a week or so ago I posted that a buddy of mine asked me to try and locate him a .375H&H. Come to find out, he's wanting the rifle for an upcoming black bear hunt in Idaho. Apparently the guide suggested he bring a rifle of at least .30 caliber, which he interpreted to mean the bigger the better.

Now I've never hunted black bears, and I suppose it's none of my business if he wants to buy a .375H&H; afterall, who needs a valid reason for a new rifle purchase, but it sure seems unecessary for black bear, especially over bait. I can't imagine them being anything that a standard issue "deer rifle" wouldn't handle. My buddy shoots a 7mm Remington Magnum with 160gr bullets for deer and elk, but for some reason he doesn't think it has enough "poop" for this application.

What do you guys think?

Idaho has some big black bears, but the 7RM is more than adequate for the biggest of them without concession of any kind. I would hope he would do better than a box of factory soft-points, though...

I agree with Sitka, the 7 is more than enough jam..............just use heavy for calibre bullets.

The 7mmremmag is more than enough for any black bear.My hunting partners and I have used the 140gr partition with great success.

Better than heavy, go X............

Having guided in Idaho for a while I would agree with the guide that suggested 30 caliber or bigger. It's been my long standing opinion that guns under 30 caliber do not leave a functional blood trail. That goes double for bears! that hair and fat will seal a hole Pretty darn quick. Bears don't leave much in the way of foot prints to follow either. If he is hunting with hounds or bait then things could be a bit less of an issue. However for spot and stalk on spring green hill sides where a bear the runs 100 yards will be very difficult to find I have to agree with the guides professional opinion here as it mirrors mine.

Under .308 leave little to no functional blood trail, if they do it's not for very long

Under .338 to .308 leave a decent blood trail most of the time but not always very long. you're lucky to still see anything beyond 75-100 yards.

375 to .338 are where dependable blood trails start. These calibers will nearly always lead you right to the game with little difficulty if they are hit well.

Over .375 will in most cases leave a trail that can be followed at a walk leaving copious amounts of blood which can also contain chunks of fat meat organs and hair.

G.W.- If your friend wants a bigger stick, then have him look at the ballistic charts and have him compare the 375 H&H and 300 RUM. The 300RUM carries more wallup faster and further in every catagory except right at the muzzle. This was my choice after sitting down with my partner and him explaining all the scientifics and what not. I believe he would be more than satisfied with this choice. Good luck!

Have to say I'd go with what JJ has to say on this one - he's probably been in on more bear and big critter kills than most of us could dream of...

I'll through in what I've heard and read from other guys like JJ, and finally admitted to myself through personal experience - it's better to hunt with a rifle that you can handle and shoot well - and then be selective about your shots, than to go with a rifle that has more power than you can handle and screw up the shots because of it.

Since you're buddy has the 7 RM, he's used to '06 level, or slightly above, recoil. The .375 H&H is another step up, though a bit different (more, but more of a push or a shove than a whack). That might be a consideration for him.

Also, what type of rifle(s) is he used to? I'm going to assume, though please correct if I'm wrong, that the 7 is a bolt-action. If so, and he is used to and wants to stay with the bolt, then that's fine - the sky is the limit as far as calibers. The .350 RM might be more in line with what he's used to, and still have plenty to get the job done. Same thing for any bolt gun in .358 Winchester or 35 Whelen, if he can find one. The new Remington CDL is chambered in .35 Whelen, and it's a fine looking, fine handling rig - even for a Sucks. If short mags are his thing, then the .325 WSM is a very definite bruin-getter. None of these would hit as hard as the .375 H&H, on either end, which might be a good thing on the "sending" end.

But, if he's used to and comfortable with other actions, or might just want one, then there might be other caliber options out there that might suit better than the 7 or the .375.

I know that Remington used to make the 7600 pumps in .35 Whelen. That's a pretty good sized hole, and plenty of power, without being overly nasty on the recoil end. Quick follow-ups possible, and acceptable accuracy for woods (bait) ranges and could even stretch it if a bruin was sighted out to a couple of hundred yards.

For close-work only, and with quick follow-ups and decent accuracy again available, the Browning BLR in .358 Winchester, the Winchester 94 Big-Bores in .356, .375, .444, and the new one in .450 Marlin, as well as the Marlin 336s/1895s in .356, .375, .444, .450, and .45-70 can certainly handle any bear out there. The bigger bores (thinking specifically about the .444 and .45-70) can be had with rather impressive HPs, and all of them can be loaded with deep penetrating and excellent expansion bullets. All of these leverguns will hit with about the same recoil (both energy and velocity) as a hot/heavy 7mmRM; with the ability to go way, way up in the case of the .450 and .45-70.

If a single-shot is more his style, then personally, I'd go with the Ruger #1 or T/C Encore in something like a .45-70 (in either), a .405 Winchester (Ruger) or .375 JDJ (T/C). Also, the JDJ ought to get near H&H performance with noticably less punishment.

All of that said, the .375 H&H can certainly take care of any black bear that has ever knocked over a bait barrel.

Let us know how he comes out and how the hunt goes.

Raghorny, your hunting partner needs to recheck his ballistics. The 300 RUM is not what he claims. Here is the data right from the Hornady Manual:

300 mag 180 grain bullet muzzle 3200fps 4092fpe
At 100 yards 2967fps and 3517fpe with a 200 yard zero it's +1.2" high (maybe it could be loaded hotter or use a longer barrel. The same can be said for the 375HH so I am using typical load data rather then some home made special "hot" ammo)

At 200 yards it's at 2745fps and 3012fpe
at 300 yards it's at 2534fps and 2567fps with a -5.8" drop

The 375HH at the muzzle with a 270 grain bullet is 4700fpe
at 100 yards 2563fps and 3935fpe (Nearly the same FPE as the RUM at the muzzle!) the trajectory with a 200 yard zero is +2.1"( 9/10's of an inch difference) for practical purposes on the game intended it's no difference. The Velocity at 200 yards is 2336 and the FPE is 3272

At 300 yards the Velocity is 2122 and 2699fpe with a -8.3" drop. 2" more drop at 300 yards,for practical purposes on the game intended it's not enough difference to worry about, we are talking "big game"
It still carrys more energy with a far bigger bullet, that bullet weight and diameter cannot be stressed enough. That alone makes more difference then any scientific FPE calculation!

At 400 yards the trajectoy of the RUM begins to pull away with only -17" compared to -24" with the 375HH however the 375HH still exceeds the the FPE 2167 for the RUM VS 2208 for the 375HH. This is all the way to about a 1/4 mile, not just at the muzzle!

The reality is that the 300RUM is a flatter shooting gun giving it an edge at hitting the target more consistantly beyond 350 yards for big game. However do not confuse the power difference between the two. There is simply no comparison in over all knock down killing power at any practical hunting range.

Although the FPE is not my determining factor for a firearm with more power, it happens to be the "industry" standard. As far as I am personally concerned the bullets diameter and weight far outweigh the FPE value. To that end the .375 diameter bullet is so far superior to a .308 diameter bullet the two cannot be compared for shooting the bigger game of the world which could include black bears.

The 375HH would not be my first choice for a spot and stalk black bear hunt during spring in Idaho. Might not make the top ten if I were shopping to get a gun for that hunt. I only post this to clear up the major misconception that you commented on regarding the 300RUM being more powerful at all distances beyond the Muzzle.

JJ. I think you said what I was trying to say: ( The reality is that the 300RUM is a flatter shooting gun giving it an edge at hitting the target more consistantly beyond 350 yards for big game) I was just putting another option on the table , because it sounds like the guys friend wants a big shooter and the 300 RUM is just another option and a better one IMHO!

I wish you well with this long range effort. I have never met a single experienced hunter in my life and my whole career hunting bears that could judge a bear with any degree of accuracy for sex, size, or hide quality over 300 yards. Shooting one at that distance that runs off with little or no blood is going to change the way you view recreational bear hunting when you have to go searching for a wounded animal that can and will hurt you given the chance.

raghorny,

I read both your first post on this topic, and JJHacks reply. They don't say the same thing, not even close.

It's great you like your 300RUM, but few bear hunters are going to agree with your opinion as it applies to this case.

Getting back to Great Wapiti's original inquiry, if I'm reading his post right this will be a black bear hunt over bait. In that case, a 7RM will do fine when stoked with the right bullets such as the NP or X bullet on the largest black bears over bait. I've killed several big black bears with various 7mms and I've only felt undergunned one time and that had more to do with playing backup for a friend. But if the hunter wants to shoot a black bear with a 375 over bait then there's nothing wrong with that. I say more power to him, bigger is always better if the hunter is up to it.

Not sure if I understood JJ's comment correctly on judging bears over 300 yards, but with good optics an experienced bear hunter can surely distinguish between a dink and a mature bear out past 300yds if its not too dark. One knows a big bear when a big bear presents itself if the spotter knows his bears, I'm sure JJ will agree.

MtnHtr

Should be going bear hunting in Colorado this fall - I have 3 preference points and put in for an area where 1 was a guaranteed tag last year.

My Marlin .45-70 will probably be the rifle I select, with a 350g bonded bullet at a shade under 2200fps.

GreatWaputi,

Do you have any more information on the hunt. Where in Idaho? What time of season? What distance will he likely be shooting?

If he is shooting a baited bear(close range), my choice would be a bow/arrow or handgun. If he is within 250 yards of a bait, my choice would be anything from 308/30-06/300 wm with 180's or 358/35 whelen with 225/250's.

His 7 mag will do fine. Nothing more is needed. Most bears are 200-250 lbs., 300+ is very large for Idaho.

I agree with JJACK, judging size and condition of a bear at long range is difficult. Bears are constantly on the move and make for a difficult target at long range.

You mean to say you cannot judge a bear feeding on acorns under a canopy of oaks between 300 and 500 yds using a decent pair of 10x40s and a 20X+ spotter during a mid-day siesta off a good vantage point?

MtnHtr

The hunt is over Father's Day weekend in June. Apparently the bears come in early and late because the guide suggested he bring a rifle equipped with a scope becaue open sights would be hard to see. His dad has a Winchester lever action .375 Big Bore that he thought about using, but decided against it after talking to the guide.

You guys have a ton more experience than either him or I when it comes to bears, but I find it interesting that some guys advocate using the largest caliber possible, while someone else says a bow or pistol is adequate over bait. I think he'll probably stick with the 7mm Mag after pricing .375H&H rounds today...$45.00 to $60.00 per 20 round box makes for some expensive shooting!

To be quite honest, I think the .375H&H is beyond his recoil threshhold anyway....he tends to flinch and pull shots every-now-and-again with even the 7mm Mag. Now it's just a matter of convincing him without hurting his ego...

I think we could be headed into a real abys of misunderstanding here. Some habitats are going to provide better situations then others where long range bear hunting is concerned. In all the areas I have familiarity with in the PNW the bush in spring will be between ankle high and waist high. The thickness varies by elevation. Most Idaho Spot and stalk hunts will be at an elevation where it is very steep and brushy. I find no problem with judging a bear in the open at 300 yards that is somewhat still. Sexing a bear at that distance is near imposssible. the great majority of hunters cannot sex a bear period so adding 300 yards is not a benifit. If you cannot sex the bear then many times you cannot see the cubs which are too small to be seen in the knee deep bush or grass, very often hidden in the rocks of a rock slide or under a stump or fallen tree while mom is out grazing.

As I have written many times before there are about 1000 things that can happen when shooting beyond 300 yards and only one is good. Feel lucky?

It is going to be very difficult to have all the answers needed to shoot a bear at that distance in the PNW habitats the way the are constantly moving. Judging hide quality even with 10X40's is at the very best a con toss. I have frequently used a 40X spotting scope to see hide quality on bears in SE Alaska that were only 100 yards away. Even then some had thin hair or rubbed sections I could not see trhough the scope.

As this is an out of state guided hunt I must assume(maybe I'm mistaken here?) that the hunter is out for a trophy quality animal and will desire to have a quality hide for the rug or mount. In that case shooting a spring bear over three hundred yards will be a real gamble as to the quality, size and sex of your bear.

Maybe in areas with more open habitat or bears that have a large volume of food without the typical roaming habits the distance might not be as much an issue. It's still very difficult to determine the sex and if there are cubs involved. It is absolutely possible to determine a giant of a bear. However it's becomes a much more difficult task for the guide or any hunter to decide if the bear is a 250 pound male or a 165 pound female at 300 plus yards. I have done this far too long and with some of the best guides in the business. The further you get the higher the risk. Bears don't come with antlers or horns. The judging of a bear is not very easy beyond 150 to 200 yards and even that can fool you frequently!

JJ,

No misunderstanding here since you've clarifed your stance. I've glassed for bears hours on end here in the Sierras and the terrain is very similiar to N.Idaho (I've hunted over that way too). One can glass off a high vantage point looking down or across canyons. You can watch a bear over 300yds away for a long time and determine if cubs are present and for trophy quality.

A pard and I glassed a nice boar over a thousand yds away sunning himself on a hillside below the snowline in the Cabinet Mtns of MT not too far from the ID panhandle in early May one year. The bear was fresh out of hibernation and snoozing and napping just below a rocky outcropping. Later, that week my pard killed that bear and he was every bit as big as we thought (close to 300 and 6ft). At least we think he was the same bear since he killed him about a hundred yards from where we saw him earlier that week. Alot of the spring bears in the Idaho's panhandle region and N.Montana are killed on closed logging roads where they come to feed on fresh grasses. The forestry dept usually seeds these areas with grass seed after logging is done and they become havens for spring bears. Alot of these roads and clearcuts can be glassed easily from over 300yds away.

I can't speak for PWS but I do know plenty of hunters who hunt up that way who glass the beaches while on foot and do really well. I watched a woman on a hunting show kill a nice black bear at over 300yds across a small bay. The guide ranged the bear, had the woman client take a rest over a rock and it was bang/flop, lights out. She had a clear shot over the water and the range was a bit over 300yds.

One can glass and judge black bears at well over 300yards in mtn country if they have good optics and lighting, and a good vantage point. I've done it, my pards have done it and I'm not buying your stance one bit.

Great Wapti,

I don't know who your friend's guide is but if he is advocating that a 375H&H is needed for spring black black bears over bait and a 7RM is not enough then I would take him with a grain of salt. Its amazing how many so called locals obtain a guide's license and all of a sudden they are experts. Not saying this is the case here but it could very well be.

Sermon over!

MtnHtr

mtn hunter

You won't find too many bears feeding on acorns under oaks in Idaho. No oaks or acorns to speak of either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

In Idaho, you can not shoot a sow with cubs. In a spot and stalk situation, the bear is usually moving along feeding on grass etc.. in and out of brush during the last couple hours of light.

Judging its size, condition, sex... is difficult.....not impossible. Good quality optics sure help.

I used to bait for bears. My stand was never more than 20 yards from the bait. Ideal for the bow or handgun. Overkill with a rifle IMO.