Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Pure lead hardness?

Can anybody tell me what the Brinnell hardness(?)of a PURE
LEAD bullet is as opposed to a pure lead 'QUENCHED' bullet?
Also, what average hardness would a copper jacketed bullet be?
How fast can a 'quenched' bullet be pushed WITHOUT a gas check?
I get good accuracy with my 9mm and no leading using either
wheelweight OR PURE LEAD QUENCHED. (I assume the velocity would be about 1100-1150 fps.)
Comments appreciated.

P.S.-Has anybody shot a .41 or .44 mag. using wheelweights
and NO gas check? Results?

I believe pure lead is a bhn of 5, and if you quench it, it will still be a bhn of 5, as there are no alloying elements. WW's that air cooled are a bhn or 11-13, dropping them from a hot mold into a bucket of water results in a bhn of ~18, if you heat treat ww bullets and quench you can get a bhn of 22. The simplest bhn tester is your fingernail. Your nail will scratch a soft lead bullet, make a mark on an air cooled ww bullet, and will be unable to mark a hardened lead bullet.

I need to find where I last posted my treatice on bullet leading, but suffice to say, there are many factors that lead to a bullet leading a bore in a revolver. Those factors are the dimensions of the cylinder throat, the alignment of the cylinder to the bore, the forcing cone, the condition of the bore, the size of the bullet in relation to the dimensions of the gun, the bullet lube used, the configuration of the bullet base, the pressure the chosen load generates, the velocity of the bullet, the twist rate of the barrel and finally the hardness of the bullet. Also those factors aren't strictly independent

That's a long way of saying that bullet hardness alone or bullet velocity alone will not keep you from leading a bore. An undersized hard bullet with a bad lube can cause the most helacious leading you've ever seen, wheres a properly sized softer bullet with a good lube can be used 1000's of times with no signifigant leading. I've fired many plain based wheelweight bullets out of a 357 mag, 44 mag and 480 ruger at 1000-1300 fps with no problems with leading and outstanding accuracy. I generally use a gas checked bullet for the hottest of loads, but that's more due to the molds I purchased being gas check designs.

One upside of gas checks is they are a bit more lenient in allowing you to not have evrything just perfect to prevent leading with a max load.

I think 458 Lott is right -- Brinell hardness of 5 is what I recall for pure lead too.

Quenching has no effect unless you have antimony and/or arsenic (I forget right now).

Wheelweights are about bhn 8, if you add some magnum shot (to get that needed arsenic/antimony?) and then quench -- and then you can hit bhn 30 or more. Such bullets will shatter before deforming.

John

Guys---Thanks a-heap for your input, it is much appreciated.
(Now I'll see if I can slip some un-gaschecked wheelweight
bullets thru my Marlin .44 mag. [Micro-grooved of course.])
P.S.-Why should I bother to quench my pure lead bullets if it
doesn't change the hardness? I guess I shouldn't, right?

If you've been shooting jacketed bullets out of your Marlin, make sure you thoroughly clean the bore of any and all fouling before shooting cast. Jacket fouling will cause leading to occur even you're doing everything right, so start with a clean bore. I'd also advise using LBT blue lube.

458 Lott has covered it well spectacularly, of course!

I have one question for you, contender.

How do you KNOW you are using pure lead?


Also, the only advantage to quenching pure lead is that it can arrive at its final hardness of (5 BHN ore thereabouts) quicker than letting them cool (aging), and deform less due to dinging each other than when dropped on other things.

Also, I've not found quenched wheelweights to shatter, more so to powder down at high speed; adding more antimony will result in larger chunks and cracking, adding tin will make it more "chewy".

Years ago I had a custom WFN style mold made for my 480 ruger, cast from ww's the bullet finished up with lube and gascheck at 460 gr. I sent some to a fellow that was going the John Linebaugh seminar, and he loaded them to 1100 fps from his 480 ruger.



Bullet on the left penetrated 38" of wet newsprint before coming to a stop, bullet on the right went through 2" of newsprint, 2-3" of bone, and another 9" of newsprint before coming to a stop. Bullets were straight ww's dropped from a hot mold into a 5 gal bucket full of water.

I'd say that is just about ideal performance for a cast bullet. In my 480 loaded to 1050 fps they would group 5 into 1" at 50 yds. The guy I sent them to also tested them at extended range and said at about 175 yds they'd start to fly wild, but I never planned to use them past 75 yds anyhow. The LFN style bullets hold their accuracy much farther down range.

I was told by the city worker that gave the lead to me, as they are old city water pipes (imagine that!). They also bend, as well as 'nick' very easily.
(I do love the 'softness' tho when my 240 gr..45 ACP bullets 'pie out' to about
3/4" when shooting at firewood sticks at 25 yds.)

Yep, though I'm betting its sewer pipe!

In regard to above: I also would think it's pure lead because
a 124 gr. mold throws a 129 gr. bullet, a 230 gr. mold a 238 gr. bullet, etc., etc.
Also: If you were to use a cast bullet for close up and personal on a bear
(not hunting; but, 25 yds. or less), what composition would it be? Penetration, expansion or somewhere in between or alternate 'types' in
cylinder?

I don't have any real-world experience on bears, but a lot of the performance (or failure) of a cast bullet for a certain task relies on impact speed and nose shape.

The old BP rifles still have a deserved following with a proven track record with soft alloys, even for dangerous critters.

I believe in driving the widest nose in an adequate caliber (with stability in meat, meaning SD/weight)without expansion at the velocity desired, to be the most foolproof use of a cast bullet in a handgun to get a consistent result.

IMO what you are trying to determine or eliminate is leading in your firearm?? Is that correct??

If so then again, IMO, the hardness of the bullet has very little to do with leading in the velocities you can attain in the cartridges you have mentioned. I have pushed 44 magnum's in a rifle to 1800 fps with no leading and no gas checks.

A good over all rule of thumb is 1600-1800 fps before you really need a gas check. I do not put gas checks on my 44 magnum or 45 Colt bullets.

I also do not concern myself very much with "hard lead". I also do not water quench my bullets. I size all my bullets and then lube them in the sizer, and when you size the bullet you reverse the effect that water quenching had on your bullet. If you have a mixed alloy and you want it harder then size your bullet(do not lube) and let them set for awhile. Time will harden them considerably more consistent.

IMO the biggest reason people get leading is not alloy hardness, or gas checks. The biggest problem IMO is lack of a properly sized bullet. Slug your barrels and size your bullets properly, that will eliminate the leading problems in your cartridge of choice.

Also, IMO, the second biggest problem or cause of leading is shooters mixing cast bullets and jacketed bullets. That is a NO-NO. DO NOT MIX. And when switching to cast from jacketed you have to make sure you remove every single itty bitty piece of coper from that barrel, or IT WILL lead. Tom.

I agree quite a bit on that, especially for handguns, but my experiences with rifles and some other things differ, I guess.

I could be wrong, but here are some of my opinions and some things I have found.

Rough machining is usually something that causes leading; if it fouls a lot with jacketed bullets in any area, its most assuredly going to foul with lead of any hardness, and the tearing on the lands is something even a checked bullet won't cure.

I've had few issues shooting lead and jacketed loads in the same gun, on the same day, except for POI changes for a few shots.

A friend of mine has a Browning Hornet that has never been cleaned since he bought it in '02. It has a pile of rounds through it, both cast and jacketed, and the little thing is scary accurate. He has a 308, 35 and 400 Whelen that get the same treatment, as do a couple of 338's I have.

I have other guns that copper foul consistently, though still shoot 1/2 to 3/4 in with a few hundred rounds through them, even when scrubbed clean will not run lead at all.

I like to run the hardest bullet possible, sized to be snug in the throat of whatever I am shooting. A water drop hardened WW bullet will resist base obturation over a wider range of loads and helps eliminate one more variable (probably the most important, pressure/friction) for top-end rifle loads or something like a 454 Casull. Of course the ability of the lube must not be an issue, either.

Even after sizing, the sized "skin" may get softer, but a file and a hardness tester will show that the bullet is hardened all the way through; it certainly is more resistant to base pressure and pressure on the nose when it hits meat.

I agree that for handguns, one doesn't need super rock hard bullets, but when pushed hard, some softer alloys begin to lose their shape and "absorb" a little energy instead of continuing forward in the target. Some of the open base pistol "FMJ" bullets will do this and everyone has seen the core squirt out of the base of 223 FMJ rounds, simply because there strength thresholds are exceeded.

If you want them to splat a little, well that works too!

I agree with Hogghead...I don't want a GC on a handgun bullet if I can help it, and most of the time its certainly not needed!

I noticed you are going to shoot bullets designed for gas checks without gaschecks. I've never been able to get that combination to shoot. I'll be curious if it will shoot for you. I've not had very good luck with nearly pure lead bullets. I find I have better luck if I add some tin. About a 1:20 mix has worked for me. Seems to cast better and shoot better too, for me. Just my experience. Good luck
Bfly

Yep, sewer pipe it surely was.

From http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Common Bullet Alloy Hardness

Alloy BHN
Lead 5
WW (stick on) 6
Tin 7
1 to 40 tin lead 8
1 to 30 tin lead 9
1 to 20 tin lead 10
1 to 10 tin lead 11
WW (clip on) 12
Lead Shot* 13
Lyman # 2 15
Water quenched WW 18
Linotype 18 - 19
Monotype 25 - 27
Oven heat treated WW 30 - 32
Antimony 50

*Tip: Lead shot has .5 to 1.0% arsenic (As) (depending on the manufacturer) and can be used as a hardening agent when heat treating lead/antimony alloys. 1/4 of 1% arsenic is all it takes. Adding any more than this adds nothing & will not further harden the alloy. Additional hardening can be achieved by heat treating when arsenic is present to approximately 30 to 32 BHN.

What about babitt metal? Hardness?

Depends on the alloy contents of the Babbitt metal itself,not all Babbitt metal makes good bullets or can be alloyed with other metals.

http://www.lasc.us/FelixBabbitbulletAlloy.htm

res45,
Thanks! Wow that was just what I was looking for.
I have some that I have had for a long time and now I know what to do with it. I remember it as having a high melting point.
I want to cast up some bullets for my Lyman mold #358009.
Thanks again,
whelennut

Use straight wheelweights for the 358009. I got the best accuracy with ww's that were aircooled. It's the only cast bullet I've managed to shoot 5 into a 1" group at 100 yds.

Unfortunately that load in my 350 rigby would hangfire at lower temps, and when I tried different primers, ignition was consistant, but groups opened up to 2"