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You are lightly implying, with your statement, that a credible and experienced instructor does not "believe in" or "trust" a Glock platform because he does not carry one personally.
I'm quite sure this particular instructor accepts and recognizes the Glock as being an adequate tool for self defense, at least at the law enforcement level of service.
WTM - Sorry, that was not what I was implying at all. I was saying that dispite the fact that a Glock has a better trigger, a very competent and very well informed individual chooses something other than a Glock. I don�t know what his reasons are for not choosing a Glock, but you can bet it�s not because he doesn�t �trust� one. The most common reason I see for people not liking Glocks is the grip angle, and if I had to bet, that would probably be his reason. But more to the point I was making, I was trying to get across that this guy who is very competent and well informed, doesn�t make much of an issue of trigger action. His personal choice typically doesn�t have as good an action as a Glock, but that issue doesn�t hold sway with him.
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I could care less about rabid anythings and I think your wasting your time or just baiting people for trying to understand them. How do you understand raw idiocy? I don't visit Glock Talk or AR15.com, don't play the video games and discuss which is better the AK74 or AK47's, don't play air guitar or discuss universal peace. If people want to be queer over their pistols or whatever that is fine I just avoid idiots like that. I have seen a few in love with H&K's that think that the mere fact that they own that particular gun makes a difference in who they are and what they can do. Its too funny. I hope anyone rabid about anything will just fill up a cooler with steaks and beer and bug out to the mountains...
IN the meantime I trust a 9mm model 17 or 19 to perform where a fine Kimber 1911 might fail. That is based on my personal experience. Of course you could always go "akimbo style" with your 1911.....
In gaming, to dual wield is to hold a weapon in each hand. Dual wield may be called akimbo style, though it has little resemblance to the human position of that name. This most commonly refers to matched pairs of handguns but can refer to any other weapon that can be held in one hand such as machine pistols and even melee weapons, although this is more common in role-playing games, where it is usually termed dual wielding
I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
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Understood.
It is an interesting topic of discussion.
I'd think that at any given time in recent history (past 100yrs or so) the topic has been chewed on to great extent around campfires all over the world.
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[quote=WTM45Wrong.
I KNOW that handguns are but a tool. Certain tools fit people and applications differently and that can be quite subjective.
I like them all. Some I will prefer over others. It's really that simple.
If one brings up the fact (which is not in question) that a leading instructor does not personally carry a particular handgun BY BRAND NAME without stating they continue with the ability to successfully train others on that platform, they are leaving out some details. [/quote]I'm sorry sir, but I wasn't implying anything, nor was I "leaving anything out". I'm not anti-Glock, not at all. Like I said, I'd like to have a G19 myself. I have never said Glock was a bad gun, never, not once; I think they're great pistols. I'm not trying to disuade anyone from owning a Glock, nor am I trying to say that a Glock is a bad choice, quite the opposite; I think the Glock is an excellent choice. I'm simply trying to understand why some people ascribe super status or ascribe super-feats to a Glock.
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I highly doubt he openly disparaged the platform predominately used by his students. His subjective personal choice to carry a different platform can not be interpreted as a dislike for the Glock by any means. While he would pick on a gun that is trash, I don�t see him trashing the Glock. And actually he trained NYPD just before they went to the Glock. It was at a time when the NYPD had a very poor record in gunfights and they called him in as a consultant because they were considering a change to a 9mm with a 10 round magazine. He basically told them they were applying a hardware solution to a software problem. The NYPD was issued S&W model 10�s with 158gr RNL ammunition, because the NY lawyers wouldn�t allow expanding ammunition for their cops (I honestly don�t know if that ever changed, I think it did, but I don�t know for a fact). After his re-training of the NYPD, they went 3 or 4 years without losing a gunfight; pretty impressive record. After that, the NYPD approved the Glock for duty, which I believe was a very good choice. The NYPD is something like the 8th largest standing army in the world; and without a doubt Glock�s biggest customer. Glock has great customer service to their LE agencies, but I�m betting NYPD enjoys OUTSTANDING customer service.
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List the guns you are refering to? None will have as good a service record as the glock in the striker fired pistols.
I didn't realize that only striker fired pistols are legitimate for LE use; I disagree.
Lets see I have heard bad things about the S&W Mp and have personally seen one in 9mm that would not run.
A sample of one. But since you've seen ONE M&P that didn't work, you postulate that they are junk. So why are you so forgiving of Glock? I've been avoiding this, but I really can�t count how many Glocks I've seen that didn't work. The Glock has been replaced a number of times by many agencies because they didn't work. I didn't mention it because I believe everyone makes a bad pistol from time to time and overall Glock is a quality gun. Glock has always done whatever they could do to make an unhappy department happy, but there have been times where the agency was still unwilling to issue Glocks. Now I could heap every bit of bad press Glock has ever had as evidence that Glock is a �bad� gun; essentially what you�re insinuating about the M&P based on your sample of one. But I honestly don�t believe Glock is a bad gun despite reported problems. When you produce that many guns, you�re bound to have issues from time to time. Back in the days when revolvers were king in LE, S&W M&P K frames had a ton of issues with a number of LE agencies, yet no one today thinks a S&W K frame revolver is junk. It�s because S&W produced oodles of them and sold them to oodles of LE agencies. Like Glock today, S&W worked with the agencies in question, and like Glock today, sometimes those agencies didn�t trust the S&W K frame, and replaced them with something else. The world of LE handguns is a whole lot larger and more complex than you apparently think it is. The S&W M&P pistol is an excellent pistol, despite your experience. Very few police departments are using these so no one knows about there durability over the long haul. No true, according to this, there are over 330 agencies using the M&P thus far: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2008/05...ents-latest-worcester-mass-pd-in-45-acp/
I don't know of any departments using the Ruger or Kahr. I also do not see many of these at the range so who knows about durability.
that�s a good response, report what you know, not what you think. Any Sig or S&W in DAO will have a trigger pull that most people can't shoot. That�s your OPINION, but you state it as if it�s fact; this is why you have a credibility problem here. Please list your pistols. Well you seem to think it�s only striker fired, trigger cocking pistols that count, but there are LOTS of pistols that are being used in law enforcement with good results: Any number of S&W�s�M&P, 69 series, 39 series, 40 series, 45 series and lots more CZ75 is one of the most common pistols in use internationally with numbers very close to Glock Various Sig models Various Beretta models Various Ruger models (Massad Ayoob carries a Ruger 345, used to carry a Ruger P90) Taurus 92 is extremely well represented in South American military and LE circles (and is an excellent pistol) Springfield 1911�s and XD�s Colt�s 1911�s Browning Hi Power Makarov Walther P-38 Walther P5 Various H&K�s Any number of these pistols can be found in wide spread service all over the world, along with a long list of pistols I failed to mention. You may FEEL that the Glock has a better service record, but there is no way to state that definitively, and if there was a way to make such a definitive statement, you can bet your arse that Glock would be saying it. Even with all Glocks marketing hyperbole, they don�t make such an outlandish claim, but you state it as if it�s some sort of incontrovertible fact, when it most certainly is not. The service record of the Glock can�t even approach that of the Browning Hi Power, yet you don�t see Hi Power nuts saying that the Hi Power is the end all, best pistol in the world and free of any and all faults. Rather, the Hi Power, despite its outstanding service record remains a good solid service pistol with its own share of issues, making it just as mortal as all the rest; even Glock. Kevin the discussion between me and Rufus was about pistols that did not have a safety or de-cocking lever. While your list of pistols is nice all them have saftey's, de-cockers or long heavy double action trigger pulls. That would have eliminated them from our discussion. Anyone that shoots a 12 lb double action trigger pull will shoot better with a 5.5 lb trigger pull gun. Anyone that shoots a 5.5 lb trigger pull gun will shoot better with a 1 lb trigger pull. It a matter of having to put that much pressure on the trigger of 35 ounce pistol. Since you are a gun writer this should be very easy for you to test. Get five or six buddies and let them shoot a DAO gun with a 10 or pound trigger pull then let them shoot something with a 5 pound trigger in it. Measure the targets. The lighter weight trigger pull will win. It is no secret that alot of the MP's are having problems. Being a writer don't you get out talk with agencies that are carrying and using these pistols? I have only seen one that would not run. I never said they were junk but something is up with them. Don't think that when agencies get rid of a glock (or any pistol) it is because what they were issuing was a bad pistol. There is a very large agency here that just switched from the glock to the sig a couple years ago. There reasoning. A muni in the area had went to the sig so they thought that they would too. No other reason than keeping up with the "jones". The glock was on bid for about $325 and the sig was $750 but since someone else had them they did not want to be left out of the loop. Dink
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Sounds like the instructor prefers a specific mode of operation (DAO) not a particular name brand. That was my observation. DAO or a Glock type action works especially well with his training methods. Regardless, at the time I was there, the top 5 shooters carried: 1 - Browning Hi Power 2 - Glock 17(a guy from Italy who had never even fired a handgun before the class; he was awesome) 3 - Browning Hi Power (my room mate from SEAL team 6) 4 - Taurus 92 5 - 1911 When I was at the class, the instructor was carrying an experimental (because Beretta never marketed it commercially) Beretta 92 compact in DAO. This was in 1991, so we're talking a long time ago.
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I'm simply trying to understand why some people ascribe super status or ascribe super-feats to a Glock. I think some Glocks have performed very well. So have many other makes. I have no idea why some attribute "super status" to any firearm. Well, the Sig P210 is pretty amazing!:) No doubt NYPD saw improvements with the conversion to Glocks coupled with the Speer Gold Dot loading.
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This was in 1991, so we're talking a long time ago. Hey now! That seems only like yesterday!:)
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It is no secret that alot of the MP's are having problems. Being a writer don't you get out talk with agencies that are carrying and using these pistols? I have only seen one that would not run. I never said they were junk but something is up with them. And where is your evidence for this? Stuff you're hearing on the internet? Again, the LE handgun market is much more complex than you think. Glock has been swapped out several times because the pistols didn't work and the agency lost confidence (LAPD is the most famous one.) In supplying LE agencies, things like this happen. And sometimes Glock loses out just like you said. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's just because it's what the chief wants. In the instance of the M&P, the story is very much the same as with the Glock. Sometimes a LE agency gets a bad batch of guns. Sometimes that agency's guns are bad because they specifically ask for changes in the design to accomodate their needs (most famous example of that is the FBI's 1076's). Sometimes it comes down to a bad batch of parts from a sub-contractor. Like I said, the LE gun business is complex; it's not a simple as you make it out to be.
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...the Speer Gold Dot loading. Is that what they're carrying? Good call, Gold Dot is a good bullet, one of my favorites. Any idea which load specifically? 115, 124, 147?? Standard pressure, or +p?
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...the Speer Gold Dot loading. Is that what they're carrying? Good call, Gold Dot is a good bullet, one of my favorites. Any idea which load specifically? 115, 124, 147?? Standard pressure, or +p? I'm pretty confident it was and is the 124 +P loading. At least it was when I last spoke with a NYPD officer I know. I'd have to ask again to verify if that is current.
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That's a pretty good choice.
Still, if I were doing law enforcement as my day job, I think I�d want a bit more penetration. Cops often have to shoot through intermediate barriers to get to their intended target. One of the reasons the 180 grain .40 is so well received in law enforcement, it expands well and drives very deep. I think my choice would be the Black Hills 147 grain load in 9mm, which also expands very well (usually .50 or better), and penetrates very deep. But NYPD generally doesn�t do something without a plan, so I�m betting they think the 124 GDHP is exactly the blend of penetration and expansion they want.
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This thread could just as easily been titled, "Rabid 1911 Owners-Please explain ???" or " Rabid Sig owners-Please explain" or "Rabid (fill in the blank) owners-Please explain".
We all have our favorites. Except maybe me, cuz they all have their place,and I like most of them.
O
Too old to suffer fools
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...the Speer Gold Dot loading. Is that what they're carrying? Good call, Gold Dot is a good bullet, one of my favorites. Any idea which load specifically? 115, 124, 147?? Standard pressure, or +p? I'm pretty confident it was and is the 124 +P loading. At least it was when I last spoke with a NYPD officer I know. I'd have to ask again to verify if that is current. I wont argue that you may be right. However, if I was a betting man, id put my money on it being a 147gr standard pressure. I have no basis for this assumption other than gut instinct given the NYPD's "less than brilliant" ammo selections of the past.
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This thread could just as easily been titled, "Rabid 1911 Owners-Please explain ???" or " Rabid Sig owners-Please explain" or "Rabid (fill in the blank) owners-Please explain".
We all have our favorites. Except maybe me, cuz they all have their place,and I like most of them.
O We do all have our favorites....but we dont go off the deep end if someone tells us our gun is not the best gun ever. WE're not even calling Glocks junk or garbage........simply imply to a "Rabid Glock owner" that other guns are just as good or better and a sh*t storm ensues.
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FWIW....im a rabid sig owner, but my Sigs are really the best gun made 
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...simply imply to a "Rabid Glock owner" that other guns are just as good or better and a sh*t storm ensues. Yeah, that's it. My favorite (like it's any secret) is the Browning Hi Power. The only pistol in the world that can come close to its service record is the 1911. The Hi Power is BY FAR the most widely issued military pistol ever, since the creation of the pistol. No other handgun in the world has been used by more militaries, more law enforcement agencies, or more elite units. It served with distinction across the entire globe, and was on both sides during WWII, highly prized by anyone lucky enough to have one. Even ole Saddam Hussein can be seen in videos and pictures with a Hi Power because the Hi Power is a status symbol in the Middle East. It�s such an awesome pistol, eminently reliable, accurate and one of the most inherently �shootable� pistols in existence; meaning, it�s just easy to be proficient with. They are laughably simple to maintain�I can�t count how many times I�ve seen someone laugh when I show them how tough it is to take one down. The grip is nearly ergonomic perfection. I could just go on and on. But at the same time, I�ll freely admit to its flaws. To ME (opinion, not fact) it is the finest 9mm pistol in existence. But it was designed and built in an age before the advent of NATO pressure 9mm ammo. The Hi Power�s slide is extremely thin and light, which makes for unparalleled handling qualities, but shoot it enough and you will crack a slide. Shoot enough NATO pressure ammo, and you will set back the locking cam in the frame and ruin the frame. Still, even with its inability to handle large quantities of NATO pressure ammo, most militaries continue to use the Hi Power rather than replace it because they still feel it�s the best 9mm out there. The Hi Power is an outstanding pistol. It is my opinion that it�s the best 9mm out there. But even though I can point to a service record that is unparalleled, I�m not foolish enough to say it is empirically THE best pistol in the world. That�s because you can�t make that statement definitively; that�s my point. Dink is trying to state empirically that the Glock is THE best, bar none. He claims the Glock has no flaws, and has the best service record of any pistol in the world. I can say one thing; Dink is empirically wrong in his assertion. The Glock is a great gun, no doubt about it. But it�s shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of other great guns, not above.
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FWIW....im a rabid sig owner, but my Sigs are really the best gun made They are great...wouldn't mind having a 229 or a 238.
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There is no denying the history of the Hi-Power.
But if I was standing at the table, loading up for a foray into "Indian Country" I'd select a Glock 17 over it.
And, I'd select a P226 DAK over the Glock 17.
That's after taking as much rifle ammo as I can carry...
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