Took this guy down last Sept in Yakutat, Alaska with 1 round of a 375 H&H w/ 300gr Trophy bonded Bear Claws. Knocked him off his feet at 100 or so yards from a left shoulder presentation shot. Jumped up and made 3 strides and collapased. This bear sqaured about 9.5 feet and the skull sqaured 26". Estimated weight about 900#
took a brwonie in 1995 at 45 yds with a 338 with hornady 250; it went 35 yds into the bush to die. took a brwonie at 20 yds in 2002 with a swift 250; he had walked the shore, then went into the timber. later jumped out of the woods as he worked his way toward us. master guide brad dennison said he had seen 3 hunters have nosler bullets blow up on bears & didnt recommend them; liked the bear claw & swift. my partner in 1995 took his with a 375 at 60 yards at last light; partner in 2002 took a 9 plus footer at about 50 yds with a 375 at last light..my advice---take enough gun & practice...see how fast you can get off the second shot & hit reliably with it..with shooting stix-- not from a bench rest..good hunting..hope this helps.chaz
Well, since this post seems to be slowing down, and I never tire of discussions of Grizzlies, and since I have zilch experience hunting them, would it be OK if I change the subject a bit and ask two questions?
What is the recommended point of aim on a bear, shoulder or lungs/hear?
On a charging bear, what is the recommended point of aim?
IMO shoulder shots breaking bone are the best way to go. Ideally I like to aim for the offside shoulder to get heart or lungs on the way through to it. If a shot presents at almost 90 degrees whereupon it makes sense to try and take out both shoulders with the first shot so much the better, again IMO.
Charging bear is pretty difficult as much like a really big guy they are moving far faster than their size would or should allow or is fair. My best advice is to aim for the nose head area, little low perhaps you hit chest lung/heart area, litte high perhaps spine, but if the bear gods are smiling and you are lucky enough to have enough caliber and penetration at hand hopefully the brain box, show over.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
I'm not sure where this idea that bear skulls are hard to penetrate came from - maybe the Lewis and Clark days with soft lead round balls - Or buckshot !!! - but I have killed a lot of really big bears, including stopping some serious close range charges, and seen many, many more killed. From my experiences any caliber and bullet combination that is appropriate for hunting them ( from a 175 gr 7mm or 180gr+ 30-06) will penetrate the skull. I tell all of my hunters to shoot their first shot directly thru the center of the chest and to immediately follow it up with another. Then, if the bear is still moving, to try and break bone. Again, from my experience, most first time bear hunters are so excited when the time comes to really shoot I want them to have the largest target avaliable. If they can handle that then they can try breaking a shoulder, pelvis or spine. It works for me.
Was gonna answer adammurwin's response, but I can't think of too many better authorities about hunting brown bears than Phil Shoemaker. My lineage through guiding is Sandy Jamieson, via Justin Johns. I'm lucky to have spent time in the company of Joe Want, and Henry "T" Tiffany as well. It just always seemed prudent to me to take the advice of guys with way more experience, while P. Shoemakers procedure is just a bit varied from what I was taught, it is within the parameters of the same school of thought. Most of the guys that could teach Phil about bear hunting have gone to the great reward. Agreed as well that while bears have a decent skull they are not lined with titanium, and I believe I mentioned providing you have sufficient caliber and penetration at hand. Can't blame anyone for questioning my stance on bear hunting, I've been on more kills than most guys, but there are lots of guys with way more experience than my own. Shoemaker is one of them. Disagree with me all you want about bear hunting, disagree very much with Phil about the same subject and you are treading where fools go IMO. We're lucky to have guys of his experience and knowledge on these subjects to share with us.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
1akhunter, Sandy and Justin are both good men, as are Tiffany and Joe. You are also correct that there is room for some dissention even among those of us who have been there. I use to argue with Andy Runyon about his opinion on light for caliber bullets killing big bears faster but always kept in mind that Andy had seen twice as many bears die as I. Joe Want is another one I look up to although I don't always agree with his opinions. We do agree on big rifles. For those of you who don't know Joe he carried a genuine H&H Royal SxS in .500 Nitro for many years when guiding on Kodiak. Last I talked with him he had a Ruger .416 Rigby. He is willing to listen to others but loves to argue and is quite a persuasive personality. All of us though have the ultimate respect and admiration for big bears. Keep the post coming and keep the BS artists honest.
Re: Joe "loves to argue and is a persuasive personality" that's about as kind of description put to Joe as I've ever heard. (grin) Seems you have some lessons to teach on diplomacy that we can all learn from as well. Joe does know a thing or two about hunting though. Surprised to hear the .416 Rigby has taken the place of his .500 SxS though, he always swore by that piece as bear back up. I'll never forget being at a seminar he gave and hearing him asked "How many bears have you taken personally?" His answer "None, I have no desire to kill a bear for me, I just enjoy seeing them."
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
I here Tom Keirstein (sp?) is building some renown for some of the bears his clients have been taking. Hope it's so Tom always seemed like a decent guy to me.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
I have met guides from all over the world who either liked or disliked certain bullets for one reason or another. However most guides are not gun loonies and one or two bad experiences with a bullet ( even if it was caused by bad shooting - which it typically is) are enough to cause them to dismiss that bullet as no good. I have an asst. guide who doesn't want to try Barnes X bullets because another guide he works for on Kodiak "had a guy loose a bear because he was using X bullets" Many years ago this same asst. guide had a hunter loose a big boar he had shot "in the shoulder" with a 250 gr Partition with a .338. The guide was down on the Partitions until Finn Aagaard (who was in camp at the same time) told him that if the hunter was using 250 gr Partitions he obviously didn't hit the bear in the shoulder. The asst. guide now has another dozen years of experience and prefers 300 gr Partitions in his 375 to any other bullet. In my camp I have dozens and dozens of recovered bullets from large bears and even have examples of "failed" (ie. did not correctly open) bullets from nearly every manufacturer of expensive, carriage trade bullets but for every "failed" bullet there are so many more that worked to perfection. Shooting big game is always different - each and every time. But quality bullets are your best insurance. I am not on anyone's payroll but , like anyone else, I do have favorites as I see an awfully lot of bears killed. Nosler Partitions, Barnes X (and their variations), Swift A-frames, Trophy Bonded, Grand Slams, North Forks, Kodiaks and Fail Safes are all on my A list.
458Win, I'm honored to get advice from you but I wasn't clear on one thing.
I understand you want hunters to go for the large target on a non-charging bear, and I understand your advice that a big bear's skull can be penetrated by an appropriate cartridge with an appropriate bullet, but do you agree that the point of aim on a charging bear is the nose/head area?
Sounds like you do but I just wanted to be sure I got that right.
First off I guess we should discuss charges. I get "charged" a half a dozen times each summer while fishing. the bears are simply warning me to go away. These "charges" are supposed to be seen - that is the point - and in those times the shooter usually has time to find a point of aim IF they have handled it before and know what is going on but for some reason charging bears tend to scare most people which rattles their thinking and aiming. If one has the experience , understanding of bear behavier (they are not alot different in that respect than a stranger's dog) and presence of mind to stand their ground these confrontations can and should be settled without having to shoot the bear. I have let bears come to within ten feet of me - but they were exceptions and I felt confident of what was going on. twenty five or thirty feet is normally close enough and closer than most bears want to approach you. Now on real charges- Many years ago I had all sorts of theories on exactly where I would shoot a bear but I have since learned that when push really comes to shove and that really pissed off big bear is only a few feet from your muzzle and coming fast any hit in the middle of the critter looks tempting and is most often the only one you can make -if that. Naturally a shot to the skull will instantly stop them but the head generally is moving and is a small target. Fortunately it is usualy centered on the animal. I still try to aim - point is more accurate - directly in line with the shoulders and hope to either hit the skull or break the neck, spine or at least shoulder. I have also found big bore bullets tend to noticibly impact the bear more. Bears do often seem succeptible to velocity and "shock" but not always.
Good clarifications Phil, when I said aim for the nose head "point" would certainly have been a better choice of words. In a real full blown charge, there really is not much time to aim (referenced early about how fast they move in relation to their size). I am not a world expert on full blown charges, but often a bears head will be bobbing to some degree as they come at you, it would be a real mistake to be bobbing the front sight of your rifle (or handgun I guess) trying to make contact with that nose head area. If you hit the head on the upward bob ( i.e. bear gods smiling upon you) so much the better, if it happens to be at the low cycle of the bears head movement you should be in line with neck, spine, shoulder area. Depending upon the terrain and speed at which the bear is coming will influence how much actual bobbing is going on with the bears head. I've been bluffed charged several times, but have been lucky to have never had what I considered a full blown attack charge directed at me. With a little luck that will still be the story, years from now. They are a neat critter with the capacity to inflict serious damage which only adds to their appeal in my view.
And they are not always easy to stop immediately, my best pard was backing up a guy on a bear stalk a couple of seasons ago. The bear had run off a smaller bear that had run off some wolves that had killed a moose and he was guarding the kill. As they approached through the thick brush the bear must have heard them, for just as he was down on one knee instructing the hunter to take the lead position for the shot it sounded like a locomotive was coming through the alders. They both fire simutaneously my pard with his .375 and the hunter with a .300 win. mag. at point blank range. My friend believes the only reason he is not bear mauled or bear scat today is because he believes the bear thought he was hearing another bear in the brush to claim his kill (as with any good bear hunters they were stalking from downwind of the bear), he said as the bears head poked through the brush, he could swear that the bears eyes went wide, much like a humans when surprised, along with that surprise the bear hesistated just an instant, thereby saving my pards bacon.
They never did recover the bear as he got away with a point blank shot from a 300 gr. Barnes (IIRC) and whatever the guy was using in his .300. But my pard swears if they had you would see chest hair singed on the bear from the muzzle blast of his .375. We both are convinced the "bear gods" were smiling favorably upon my friend that day, a moments hesitation on the bears part is all that prolly saved him from getting steamrolled by a big bruin. They estimated it as a bear in the 9' class squared. Good discussion, Phil is not steering anyone wrong IMO and I agree with the bigger bore theory, especially on charges. In my mind there is a world of difference in what is a suitable hunting caliber for bears and what makes up a good charge stopper.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
A Very interesting thread and I appreciate the comments; I've never taken a bear but would like to once. As one who may have that chance to go bear hunting in a year or two I have a ques. regarding which rifle/caliber combination of the two I have presently would most of you pick.
I have a Rem custom .340 Wea and have worked up a load with 275-gr Swift A-frames at about 2700 fps. This has a syn thetic stock, express sights, the scope is in Leup QR rings. The second is a .375 H&H but with fairly nice furniture that I'm reticent to expose to wet weather over a week to ten days but wil if that is universally the pick. I shoot both well and am not afraid of them.
Another thing I've never heard of in respect to bear hunting in NA but which you hear of in Africa with perhaps buffalo especially is the "double tap". That is the first shot is through the engine works with a premium softpoint but the second up the spout is a solid that is delivered at any angle the beast gives as it comes (charges ?) or turns to flee. What about solids in bear hunting as in the "double tap"; any application there?
Anyone who can sucessfully fast double tap with a heavy bolt gun has my respect. But yes I, and virtually every Alaskan guide with experience with big bears will tell you to keep shooting till they stop moving. As for solids, I have tried them and find them of some use for a guide who might have to poke a hole thru a bruin from the rear but in practise find that the super penetrating solids like heavy Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions typically works just as well in the penetration department plus kill faster.
