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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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More stuff I got copied in. First is a PDF I made up from a review of the 1920, but I couldn't scan it because I'd break the spine of the book. So I did my best at taking some pictures. Is this quality okay, or should I figure out something else to do? Definitely not great.. Click Here for Horace Kephart's Review of the 1920 Also found appropriate ads for the peep sights. One I was able to scan, the other I wasn't. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.savagefest.net/magazines/articlesads/Outing/1920/December_Marbles_S20_Ad_small.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.savagefest.net/magazines/articlesads/Outing/1920/November_Lyman_54_Ad_small.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
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Note on page 1 where he states that Savage used .228 bullets in a .226 bore!!??
Never heard that claim before. Did I miss something?
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Campfire Tracker
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Great advertisements! And that's a great article, too.
Thanks Rory.
"Rhetoric is no substitute for reality." -Thomas Sowell
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Great advertisements! And that's a great article, too.
Thanks Rory. +1. Thank you. I have it printed out. All I have to do now is remember where I put it the nEXT time I want to read it..........Hunting seasons just aren't long enough to really enjoy my 20.  So many deer to kill,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not enough time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NRA Endowment Life Member (and proud of it)
Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. - Plato
Deuteronomy 22:5
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This is the kind of stuff that makes this forum worthwhile IMO. Thanks for posting these items Cal!
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed-unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison
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Campfire Tracker
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Thanks for posting these. Great stuff!
Rod
*****************************************
Hunting FOR Savages, Hunting WITH Savages
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Really good stuff! Thanks for sharing it.
Ron
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Great advertisements! And that's a great article, too.
Thanks Rory. +1. Thank you. I have it printed out. All I have to do now is remember where I put it the nEXT time I want to read it..........Hunting seasons just aren't long enough to really enjoy my 20. So many deer to kill,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not enough time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks RORY , but don't stop now  those kinds of articles are super, if the bore on the 22HP is 226 even a jacketed 227 is probably pushing things in a new gun ,but in our old girls should be good , Gonahhh where are you 
There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden .
If it wern't entertaining, I wouldn't keep coming back.------the BigSky
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My thanks to you also, Rory. Having stuff like that to read is priceless. I liked his comment about how the factory rear sight doesn't have those "absurd wings" which I assume is a reference to buckhorn sights.
As to the .226 groove diameter, who knows? The small sampling of the ones I have are all .227 and .228. Rifling technology in use by the factories back then was nowhere near as consistent as what we enjoy today. I would be interested to know what bore tolerances were acceptable to quality control inspectors at Savage. Not just for the .22HP, but for all of them. Maybe the very earliest barrels were bored undersized, and when they realized the folly of that they switched up. Again, who knows? The factory records and written policies from that era are gone with the wind, aren't they?
Superior barrel making technology combined with today's precision bullets gives us an unprecedented expectation of accuracy from our guns. Witness Kephart's analysis of his rifle's accuracy, and the comments provided by Townsend Whelen re: 5" groups at 200 yds. That was considered mighty good 90 years ago, but would cause today's shooter to send the rifle back to the factory and demand reparations. That's not to say that there weren't wonderfully precise rifle barrels back then. They were available from guys like Pope and Niedner, but again the rather poor quality jacketed bullets then available didn't allow best accuracy to be achieved.
We dare not read articles written 90 years ago with our modern eyes. They must be read with 1920 eyes.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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In 1920, there was not another short action rifle that was anywhere on the horizon even close to the Model 20. It was the most modern. It's the 2" groups at 100 yards with only open sights that I find really impressive. Also shooting sub 4" groups from the prone position at 200 yards with the same set up is reflective of the accuracy of these rifles. (page 24, center column) With modern bullets, powder, reloading data and a lot of practice we might yet be able to duplicate those feats. First though, I'd have to give up those Starbuck double long expressos.  Great rifles!
Last edited by olgrouser; 01/22/11.
"Rhetoric is no substitute for reality." -Thomas Sowell
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I have a model 1920 for sale (20/26) in 250-3000 with a factory Lyman 54.
Send me a PM for details if interested.
"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
~Admiral Yamamoto~
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Shame, you're on the other side of the border... those Model 20s have sure gone up in value since I bought mine for $300.-. Still one of my favourite Savages. ![[Linked Image]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/olgrouser/Savage%201920/1920reprint.jpg)
"Rhetoric is no substitute for reality." -Thomas Sowell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
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I've got the 250-3000 article saved also that he references in there, just haven't turned it into a pdf yet. Hopefully I'll get that in tonight. I can get copies of the magazines going back to 1895, so hopefully I'll find lots of little nuggets to share.
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Rory, Those articles are really nice . Don
Last edited by Loggah; 01/22/11.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
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Remember that back in the day, cartridges were sometimes "numbered" by the diameter of the bore at the top or the lands, rather than at the bottom of the grooves. For example, the 256 Newton has a .256" diameter bore at the top of the lands and a .264" diameter bore at the bottom of the grooves. Since you want the bullet spin, you buy them in a diameter equal to the bore diameter at the bottom of the grooves.
I think that the 22 HP has always been a .228" bore cartridge. Harvey Donaldson claimd, in "Yours Truely", to have built a 22-250 with a .228" blank that he got from somebody at Savage. Harvey didn't live far from Utica and knew all the NY wildcatters of his generation.
JEff
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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My thanks to you also, Rory. Having stuff like that to read is priceless. I liked his comment about how the factory rear sight doesn't have those "absurd wings" which I assume is a reference to buckhorn sights.
As to the .226 groove diameter, who knows? The small sampling of the ones I have are all .227 and .228. Rifling technology in use by the factories back then was nowhere near as consistent as what we enjoy today. I would be interested to know what bore tolerances were acceptable to quality control inspectors at Savage. Not just for the .22HP, but for all of them. Maybe the very earliest barrels were bored undersized, and when they realized the folly of that they switched up. Again, who knows? The factory records and written policies from that era are gone with the wind, aren't they?
Superior barrel making technology combined with today's precision bullets gives us an unprecedented expectation of accuracy from our guns. Witness Kephart's analysis of his rifle's accuracy, and the comments provided by Townsend Whelen re: 5" groups at 200 yds. That was considered mighty good 90 years ago, but would cause today's shooter to send the rifle back to the factory and demand reparations. That's not to say that there weren't wonderfully precise rifle barrels back then. They were available from guys like Pope and Niedner, but again the rather poor quality jacketed bullets then available didn't allow best accuracy to be achieved.
We dare not read articles written 90 years ago with our modern eyes. They must be read with 1920 eyes. I like the way you think and analyze
There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden .
If it wern't entertaining, I wouldn't keep coming back.------the BigSky
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,740
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,740 |
Here's the article he wrote up on the 250-3000 cartridge. Changed the colors as much as I could from the brown to a white/gray. Hopefully it's more legible now. Give me feedback on how it is. Wish I could get the pages flatter, but won't risk damaging the binding. Horace Kephart on the 250-3000 cartridge in a 1920 bolt action
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I could read it just fine.
thanks for another contribution.
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