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Campfire Regular
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck.
RLTW
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck. One of them had a pump shotgun. Also, I read an account many years ago that quite a few of them, in anticipation of arriving at the scene, unholstered their sidearms and stupidly laid them on their car seats. When the cars suddenly stopped, their sidearms went flying forward to their feet, so they had to reach down for them, which gave the bad guys time to start shooting without return fire.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm going from memory here, but I believe that was Agent Mireles, who actually ended the fight by killing Platt with his 870. Prior to that he scored with his model 13 shooting the round I mentioned earlier.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely,
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Campfire Tracker
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That stupid made for tv movie should be banned....if one takes the time to do the research, what tv depicted was was not even close.... The agents involved would not even endorse it....
Bob With the exception of the FA Mini in the movie, the shootout was almost EXACTLY as it happened. I got the chance to watch the FBI's training video of the firefight and the one in the movie, and Hollywood did pretty darned good. Yeah, they pumped up the drama, but the placement of the shooters, and the events of shots, hits, and respoonses to being hit were pretty much dead on. But Hollywood just can't help being Hollywood. Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..? You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL. Bob I know...I know....I know....the answer...grin. I thought it was Matix not madix.. Dink
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck. One of them had a pump shotgun. Also, I read an account many years ago that quite a few of them, in anticipation of arriving at the scene, unholstered their sidearms and stupidly laid them on their car seats. When the cars suddenly stopped, their sidearms went flying forward to their feet, so they had to reach down for them, which gave the bad guys time to start shooting without return fire. That was the case with at least one of the agents, from what I understand. The whole shootout pretty much made Martin Topper's career. Everybody now knows that the 147 grain 9mm is the absolute bestest 9 round going 'cause it out penetrates all the 115 grainers.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely, It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Some of them were carrying the 2 1/2" Model 66 IIRC
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.emeraldvalleyarmory.com/store/media/colt/47.7B.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If police departments and federal police agencies wanted a 9mm why didn't they use the perfectly fine .38 Super another round designed as a man-stopper. Why do we keep trying to re-invent the wheel? Want a man-stopper use the .45ACP or a .38 Super in a pistol and the case is closed.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely, That was the issue ammo that the agents were using that day. The 158 grain LSWCHP from the 38 Special +p ammo hit Matrix under the left eye, penetrating the nasal cavity and coming to rest against the vertebrae. The bullet did not disrupt the spinal column
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly! Not Green Beret; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly! Not Green Beret; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen.
Never said they were, but they sure ain't Green Beret either
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: I thought Colt was sued for patent infringement on the Pocket Nine, by Seecamp, IIRC?
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen. To be in a Ranger unit, you don't have to be a tabbed Ranger. I don't see anything that says he went to Ranger school, just served with a Ranger unit. And this was back at the lowest point for US military training and readiness; post Vietnam. So I'm not sure this was a factor; could have been, or maybe not, I just don't know.
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