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From the movie FBI Shootout
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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The shootout spawned the 10 mm in a high capacity pistol
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my Brother in Law was on the FBI task force in Miami then, and was testifying in Court (in a case brought by Janet Reno when she was State Attorney), when the shoot out took place.
He missed the shoot out, but knows all the details. He later was on the FBI firearms team that brought the S&W pistol and the 10MM into FBI Use. He told me the other day, that during testing, he fired 5K rounds in a week, through one of those S&W semi autos.
Last edited by Mannlicher; 01/31/11.
Sam......
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The problems they had were not so much caliber related as bullet design. The 9mm they used was too light and expanded too fast for deep penetration.
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problems they had were not so much caliber related as bullet design. The 9mm they used was too light and expanded too fast for deep penetration. Exactly, not enough penetration is correct. The other important factor that I got from the shootout is that there are some that will not stop until they are stopped and one must be prepared for that scenario
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Those two should be pictured in the dictionary under "Bad Guys". If I recall correctly, one of the cross-torso shots that Platt took should have been a killer, but the Silvertip just didn't dig quite deep enough.
Now with even more aplomb
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That stupid made for tv movie should be banned....if one takes the time to do the research, what tv depicted was was not even close.... The agents involved would not even endorse it....
Bob
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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That stupid made for tv movie should be banned....if one takes the time to do the research, what tv depicted was was not even close.... The agents involved would not even endorse it....
Bob With the exception of the FA Mini in the movie, the shootout was almost EXACTLY as it happened. I got the chance to watch the FBI's training video of the firefight and the one in the movie, and Hollywood did pretty darned good. Yeah, they pumped up the drama, but the placement of the shooters, and the events of shots, hits, and respoonses to being hit were pretty much dead on. But Hollywood just can't help being Hollywood.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A number of thoughts go through the mind.
1. Why 9MM when the .45ACP was available. The.45ACP was designed as a man-stopper. The .45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
2. Why police and federal police agencies using revolvers did not adopt the .44 Special. The .44 Special in a double action revolver is the premier man-stopper.
3. Which is why in Veitnam the Special Forces advisers chose to carry .44mag as a man-stopper when they weren't allowed to carry anything else.
4. When face with low velocity and big chuck of lead is the way to go.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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Well sorta. It spawned 10mm development in a large framed pistol platform that couldn't be controlled by novices. That resulted in a downloaded 10mm and the result of that led to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow called the .40 S&W. (I call it a solution in search of a problem - but that's just my opinion.)
But it also spawned about 95% of the BS propogated these days about the "effectiveness" of weapons and ammunition.
With the odds stacked 4 to 1 in their favor, the agents involved should have been able to handle this encounter with .22 rifles! There were over a dozen agents in 11 cars involved in the search for Platt & Matix that morning before they initiated this "gunfight". By any measure, the bad guys were outnumbered and outgunned.
The law enforcement community missed it then and they continue to miss the point .... it had absolutely nothing to do with the guns on either side. But I must admit, setting the realities aside sure has spurned a host of mindless arguments (9mm vs .45 immediately comes to mind) and generated a bunch of guns and ammo sales.
I certainly don't mean to offend anyone directly, but if anybody really thinks the outcome of that "shootout" would have been any different had they been armed differently - then I'm afraid you don't know what you don't know.
The uninitiated are always easily impressed.
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41magfan;
You bring up a couple excellent points.
I'm not a cop; never been one, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, yada, yada, yada...
Here's a few screw ups from the get-go:
The FBI went in without ANY notification to local authorities (i.e., the local guys who showed up had no idea what was actually going on). Which also meant no immediate back-up if schit got weird.
And, they had NO semblance of a unified approach to those two once/if they were identified; it was all cowboy-up and go get'm, with no game plan.
Compound those two with Murphy's Law, and you get the clusterphuck that they got.
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Probably because in order to get women and men who are not familiar with firearms to qualify, they have to make standard a pistol that is easy to shoot.
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A number of thoughts go through the mind.
1. Why 9MM when the .45ACP was available. The.45ACP was designed as a man-stopper. The .45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
2. Why police and federal police agencies using revolvers did not adopt the .44 Special. The .44 Special in a double action revolver is the premier man-stopper.
3. Which is why in Veitnam the Special Forces advisers chose to carry .44mag as a man-stopper when they weren't allowed to carry anything else.
4. When face with low velocity and big chuck of lead is the way to go. I once worked under a retail manager who was a Vietnam War vet. He told me he carried a Model 29 Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, and shot quite a few VC from the trees with it. I wonder if he was an adviser of the type you mention. Can't imagine opting for the M29 when you have an assault rifle slung over your shoulder. I never questioned his choice, though, or maybe he would have elaborated.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Gee VA, I don't read anything of yours any more but I did this time and I think you are dead on. Forgive the pun.
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.45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
Not quite. The war in the Philippiines was in 1899, and the .45 ACP was created in 1910. The round used in the Philippine war was either the .45 Colt, the .45 S&W, or both; probably both. The .45 S&W's ballistics are nearly identical to the .45 ACP.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A number of thoughts go through the mind.
1. Why 9MM when the .45ACP was available. The.45ACP was designed as a man-stopper. The .45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
2. Why police and federal police agencies using revolvers did not adopt the .44 Special. The .44 Special in a double action revolver is the premier man-stopper.
3. Which is why in Veitnam the Special Forces advisers chose to carry .44mag as a man-stopper when they weren't allowed to carry anything else.
4. When face with low velocity and big chuck of lead is the way to go. I once worked under a retail manager who was a Vietnam War vet. He told me he carried a Model 29 Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, and shot quite a few VC from the trees with it. I wonder if he was an adviser of the type you mention. Can't imagine opting for the M29 when you have an assault rifle slung over your shoulder. I never questioned his choice, though, or maybe he would have elaborated. In the beginning of the Vietnam War before we committed combat troops the Special Forces were in an advisor capacity to the South and weren't allowed to carry weapons. However, for self defense, they were allowed to carry side arms and the side arm of choice was a S&W Model 29 in .44mag. I also heard that there were a number of special made Ruger .44mag carbines with folding stocks and selector switches for use by Special Forces advisors. They were called the "Green Machine" because the carbines were painted green. I did see one of the "Green Machine". I have no idea if this story about the "Green Machine" is true or not. The S&W Model 29 story is true.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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.45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
Not quite. The war in the Philippiines was in 1899, and the .45 ACP was created in 1910. The round used in the Philippine war was either the .45 Colt, the .45 S&W, or both; probably both. The .45 S&W's ballistics are nearly identical to the .45 ACP. Thanks for the correction. The M1911 was a result of the Philippine campaign wasn't it?
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Outnumbered and out gunned ? Since when have men armed with handguns out gunned trained men with rifles and shotguns ? I pray that if the day comes when I'm up against any more armed men, that I'm armed with a rifle and he and his buddies have only handguns.
As pointed out, bad tactics. Presumably the FBI agents knew these guys were armed and had military training.
Yes, the event pointed out lack of penetration of the loads used under those conditions. That's why rounds like the 10mm and the 45 ACP have an edge under certain conditions.
They may not kill much better, but they do out penetrate the lessor loads like the 9mm stuff.
Speaking of killing, or stopping, nowadays you can expect anybody you may fight to be high on drugs which can make them tough to stop with any load unless you do a CNS hit. So, the heavier loads are prefered but only to those that shoot them well.
BTW, if you think the Miami shootout was bad, look up the Newhall Shoot Out where four California Highway patrolmen were killed by two bank robbers in the early 1970's. Lots of hard lessons there too. E
Last edited by Eremicus; 01/31/11.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Outnumbered and out gunned ? Since when have men armed with handguns out gunned trained men with rifles and shotguns ? I pray that if the day comes when I'm up against any more armed men, that I'm armed with a rifle and he and his buddies have only handguns.
As pointed out, bad tactics. Presumably the FBI agents knew these guys were armed and had military training.
Yes, the event pointed out lack of penetration of the loads used under those conditions. That's why rounds like the 10mm and the 45 ACP have an edge under certain conditions.
They may not kill much better, but they do out penetrate the lessor loads like the 9mm stuff.
Speaking of killing, or stopping, nowadays you can expect anybody you may fight to be high on drugs which can make them tough to stop with any load unless you do a CNS hit. So, the heavier loads are prefered but only to those that shoot them well.
BTW, if you think the Miami shootout was bad, look up the Newhall Shoot Out where four California Highway patrolmen were killed by two bank robbers in the early 1970's. Lots of hard lessons there too. E
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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.45ACP was the round that stopped the drugged Moro warriors of the Philippines.
Not quite. The war in the Philippiines was in 1899, and the .45 ACP was created in 1910. The round used in the Philippine war was either the .45 Colt, the .45 S&W, or both; probably both. The .45 S&W's ballistics are nearly identical to the .45 ACP. I believe, however, that the Philippines experience (where they had to break out the old SAAs from mothballs in order to stop the drugged up Moros at close range in massed attacks) was an influence in selecting .45 caliber for the 1911.
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Thanks, Derby Dude. I'm very familar with the details. It did not go down as described in the memorial.
Bad tactics and politically correct procedures were the primary cause. E
Last edited by Eremicus; 01/31/11.
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Failing to see how the Newhall incident is anywhere close.
Hell, that kind of thing can/does happen regularly, though perhaps not with the level of fatalities (body armor, for one thing, stops that).
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Thanks, Derby Dude. I'm very familar with the details. E From personal experience?
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No, I wasn't there or in it. But I did get a copy of the blow by blow account.
CHP's stop the car. Driver officer walks up to the driver's side and gets shot dead with .357. Passenger officer then racks a round into his shotgun. He didn't load it probably because he would have to write an extensive report justifying the breaking of the seal which their shotguns were required to have. He then procedes to blow out the back windows of the car with all four rds. of OO buck. With shotgun empty, he then unloads his .357 at said car. When his revolver is empty, he then comes under fire from both BG's. He retreats to the back of his car and attempts to reload. While reloading, he is approached by both BG's on either side of his car and shot dead.
When Bad Guys attempt to leave in their car, the next two cops arrive. The BG's rearm themselves with spare, loaded guns and bring the next two under fire. Cop(s) empty their guns as they have been trained to do, if not out right killed. Don't recall exactly when CHP #3 was killed. The BG's again rearm with spare guns and close in on the remaining cop and shoot him dead as he attempts to reload.
Then they wind up fleeing on foot as a private citzen runs forward and attempts to engage them with fallen officer's gun. He fires the only rd. in the gun and misses.
The whole thing was witnessed by many in the restaurant. BTW, the shootout took place on the approach to the restaurant. Not in the parking lot. The cops stopped them before backup arrived probably to prevent a confrontation in the parking area. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks, Derby Dude. I'm very familar with the details. It did not go down as described in the memorial.
Bad tactics and politically correct procedures were the primary cause. E Your welcome. I used the CHP version as I figured it was the most accurate of all that was posted. I guess I was wrong.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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A quick primer on what fighting is suggested to have stimulated the evolution of the 1911 45ACP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_RebellionSuggest you pay special attention to the KIA stats listed.
Last edited by medicjim; 01/31/11.
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In my reading of the incident, it appears that the mistake was one of hubris and bad luck. It seemed that the Agents had been woefully undergunned with snub nose revolvers, reloads and lack of body armor and long guns. It seemed as the threat of superior numbers (not weaponry) would likely subdue the suspects but they did not take into account the fury the suspects would unleash on them. While many of the Agents shots were on target, they did not provide "stopping power" which allowed themselves to get shot. Unfortunately it is incidents like this that evolve into a better training initiative and tactics for future officers. I think this shootout was an evolution event, only to fade from memory for the LA Bank shootout.
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According to the info I have both bankrobbers had handmade body armor. One of the men had armor which covered quite a bit more than a standard police vest would have. When I was in the Army we used the 45 ACP. The women were allowed to use the 38 S&W revolver if they were not comfortable with the .45 ACP. I suspect that that is why police departments used the 9mm, because they want the women to be able to qualify. Otherwise they can't be PC and hire women. Lots of policeman wouldn't know an H&K MP5 from a Colt M 16. I saw a policeman at a gun safety class demonstrate why you shouldn't point guns at people by firing at a can full of water with a 12 gauge shotgun, then another policeman was going to shoot another water container with a 44 Magnum pistol. At 25 yards, shooting from a bench with sandbags, he was unable to hit the container. Yet most policemen are considered to be experts on firearms merely because they wear one on their belt all day. 
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
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Yet most policemen are considered to be experts on firearms merely because they wear one on their belt all day. Shot next to too many cops at the range to think that. I can usually take their gun and shoot groups half the size they were with it, completely cold.
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It seems like police departments in Minnesota want to hire people with bachelors degrees in social work or psychology not gun slingers. In fact I spoke with a highway patrolmen who told me that they would rather not hire the gunslinger type. That could be a problem when they need to defend themselves against hardened criminals. IMO One policeman I used to shoot bowling pins with told me that he almost got run over by somebody during a traffic stop. I asked him how many rounds he had gotten off and he said "NONE"! Which really surprised me because he can shoot five pins in about 3 seconds. He shoots a Glock if that makes any difference.  whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
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Complacency killed the FBI agents that day. They got used to dealing/arresting people that put up little fuss. They knew they were after armed skilled men and most did not put on thier body armor or grab a shotgun/rifle (I heard both were available for the asking).
41magfan said it best. The FBI was not so much out gunned as out smarted. I believe in my own mind that most of the agents thought that those guys would give up just like the hundreds before them had. Only after the shoot out did the start the bullchit of they knew they were after very dangerous men.
Dink
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It seems like police departments in Minnesota want to hire people with bachelors degrees in social work or psychology not gun slingers. In fact I spoke with a highway patrolmen who told me that they would rather not hire the gunslinger type. That could be a problem when they need to defend themselves against hardened criminals. IMO One policeman I used to shoot bowling pins with told me that he almost got run over by somebody during a traffic stop. I asked him how many rounds he had gotten off and he said "NONE"! Which really surprised me because he can shoot five pins in about 3 seconds. He shoots a Glock if that makes any difference. whelennut Almost all of our new hires have a degree of some kind and most have never fired a gun until they go to the academy. I know of a very large agency that wanted kinder gentler policeman. On there exam there was a question asking something to the effect of "Would you rather be involved in a homicide investigation or helping school children cross the road." Anyone that answered homicide thier application was thrown away and they hired the ones that answered to help children cross the road. They hired approximately 50-60 people this way. Now they have 50-60 people that won't fight, chase bad guys or do anything but a Public Relations event....Needless to say they don't hire like that any more. Dink
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Campfire 'Bwana
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41magfan;
You bring up a couple excellent points.
I'm not a cop; never been one, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, yada, yada, yada...
Here's a few screw ups from the get-go:
The FBI went in without ANY notification to local authorities (i.e., the local guys who showed up had no idea what was actually going on). Which also meant no immediate back-up if schit got weird.
And, they had NO semblance of a unified approach to those two once/if they were identified; it was all cowboy-up and go get'm, with no game plan.
Compound those two with Murphy's Law, and you get the clusterphuck that they got. The agents were on stake out and had about given up when a team spotted the car and other teams headed that way. The BG's started into a residential area which caused the agents to act when they did. 2 of the agents arrived after the firefight was under way. The agents were using the weapons that they were authorized to use at the time.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Complacency killed the FBI agents that day. They got used to dealing/arresting people that put up little fuss. They knew they were after armed skilled men and most did not put on thier body armor or grab a shotgun/rifle (I heard both were available for the asking).
41magfan said it best. The FBI was not so much out gunned as out smarted. I believe in my own mind that most of the agents thought that those guys would give up just like the hundreds before them had. Only after the shoot out did the start the bullchit of they knew they were after very dangerous men.Dink They knew these men were dangerous, because the agents knew that these men had shot and killed people during there hold ups even when not necessary
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Many years ago I went to an interview that was videotaped while I was asked some pretty strange questions. They must have thought I had some pretty strange answers because I did not get hired.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Outfitter
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That stupid made for tv movie should be banned....if one takes the time to do the research, what tv depicted was was not even close.... The agents involved would not even endorse it....
Bob With the exception of the FA Mini in the movie, the shootout was almost EXACTLY as it happened. I got the chance to watch the FBI's training video of the firefight and the one in the movie, and Hollywood did pretty darned good. Yeah, they pumped up the drama, but the placement of the shooters, and the events of shots, hits, and respoonses to being hit were pretty much dead on. But Hollywood just can't help being Hollywood. Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..? You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL. Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available.
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck.
RLTW
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Campfire Kahuna
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame.
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Campfire Sage
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck. One of them had a pump shotgun. Also, I read an account many years ago that quite a few of them, in anticipation of arriving at the scene, unholstered their sidearms and stupidly laid them on their car seats. When the cars suddenly stopped, their sidearms went flying forward to their feet, so they had to reach down for them, which gave the bad guys time to start shooting without return fire.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm going from memory here, but I believe that was Agent Mireles, who actually ended the fight by killing Platt with his 870. Prior to that he scored with his model 13 shooting the round I mentioned earlier.
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Campfire Sage
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely,
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That stupid made for tv movie should be banned....if one takes the time to do the research, what tv depicted was was not even close.... The agents involved would not even endorse it....
Bob With the exception of the FA Mini in the movie, the shootout was almost EXACTLY as it happened. I got the chance to watch the FBI's training video of the firefight and the one in the movie, and Hollywood did pretty darned good. Yeah, they pumped up the drama, but the placement of the shooters, and the events of shots, hits, and respoonses to being hit were pretty much dead on. But Hollywood just can't help being Hollywood. Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..? You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL. Bob I know...I know....I know....the answer...grin. I thought it was Matix not madix.. Dink
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Campfire Kahuna
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. Thank you! The caliber of the handgun had jack [bleep] to to with it. They ALL suck. One of them had a pump shotgun. Also, I read an account many years ago that quite a few of them, in anticipation of arriving at the scene, unholstered their sidearms and stupidly laid them on their car seats. When the cars suddenly stopped, their sidearms went flying forward to their feet, so they had to reach down for them, which gave the bad guys time to start shooting without return fire. That was the case with at least one of the agents, from what I understand. The whole shootout pretty much made Martin Topper's career. Everybody now knows that the 147 grain 9mm is the absolute bestest 9 round going 'cause it out penetrates all the 115 grainers.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely, It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry.
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you?
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Some of them were carrying the 2 1/2" Model 66 IIRC
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's.
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Campfire Sage
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.emeraldvalleyarmory.com/store/media/colt/47.7B.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If police departments and federal police agencies wanted a 9mm why didn't they use the perfectly fine .38 Super another round designed as a man-stopper. Why do we keep trying to re-invent the wheel? Want a man-stopper use the .45ACP or a .38 Super in a pistol and the case is closed.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available. The issue weapon of the FBI prior to the issuance of the 1076 was the model 13 .357 round butt with a 3" barrel, unless I'm mistaken. It had replaced the 3 1/2" model 27 .357 Mag. The Agent who finally ended the shootout was using the .38 Spec. +P FBI round in his issue K frame. Yep, I've heard that too. It performed flawlessly, too, compared to the Silvertips, penetrating deeply and deforming nicely, That was the issue ammo that the agents were using that day. The 158 grain LSWCHP from the 38 Special +p ammo hit Matrix under the left eye, penetrating the nasal cavity and coming to rest against the vertebrae. The bullet did not disrupt the spinal column
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly! Not Green Beret; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Platt had a Mini-14 in .223 and that is the weapon that inflicted all of the damage on the FBI guys. Plus Platt was NOT a standard 11-Bravo dogface "soldier," but a former Green Beret. The Mini-14 combined with Platt's combat skills methinks is what helped to bloody the FBI so badly! Not Green Beret; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen.
Never said they were, but they sure ain't Green Beret either
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: I thought Colt was sued for patent infringement on the Pocket Nine, by Seecamp, IIRC?
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Ranger
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Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen. To be in a Ranger unit, you don't have to be a tabbed Ranger. I don't see anything that says he went to Ranger school, just served with a Ranger unit. And this was back at the lowest point for US military training and readiness; post Vietnam. So I'm not sure this was a factor; could have been, or maybe not, I just don't know.
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Campfire Ranger
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Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..?
You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL.
Bob
Okay, it's not accurate to THAT level of detail. The Hollywood factor kicks in as to how many rounds were fired, and the insertion of the AC556 where there should have been a Mini 14. But overall, how the cars interacted, how they ended up, who was where, who was hit, and where, the use/non-use of cover, etc. All of that was accurate and gave a good general depiction of the shootout. For Hollywood, it was pretty damned good, but at the end of the day, the purpose of the movie was to entertain, not to document.
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: I just missed one of these the other day. I walked in a gunshop and they were selling it for $400 it was NIB. I damn near cryed. I think they go for about 1k on gunbroker. Dink
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm not sure...could have been, or maybe not,...I just don't know.
Spot-on.
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Then that is the way it should be looked at...as entertainment based on an incident and that is all... The real shame is if the studio had just done the short chase, firefight and all the rest as accurately as it could have been reconstructed it would have been just as entertaining and dramatic.
Some people wonder why the .38 Special round from McNeil's didn't do a better job on Matix. If you have The Forensic Analysis of the fierfight, on page 25 I think there is the answer. I don't think from the recovered piece of bullet from Matix's sinus is whole in that McNeil hit him directly...I think the bullet hit the window frame of the drivers door and then a piece of the bullet hit Matix in the temple. Otherwise why is the rest of the bullet missing...then of course there is the question of "where did the evidence disappear to" after it was cataloged and photographed the bullet fragment disappeared.....
I've have studied this firefight in detail since shorty after it happened. I was able to collect some tapes from academies that had some of the agents for guest speakers. The more you listen the more unanswered questions there are....
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's the same round I bought for my wife's Detective Special and now load in her Magnum Carry. You didn't buy that Magnum Carry that was under discussion here, did you? ~chuckles~No, I didn't get that one away from you. The wifey has had a Magnum Carry since I bought her the first one I saw, probably back in the late nineties? I can't really remember, but it was when they were in regular production. My Mom still has her Detective Special that was identical to my wife's. You lucked out, then. They were in production for one year. After that, despite huge popularity, they stopped production due to pressure from the Clinton administration. Same year they stopped production of the very popular little single action .380 auto pistols, and for the same reason, pressure to stop making the kinds of guns that are thought of as easy to conceal in a pocket. They discontinued a super popular compact 9mm auto pistol that year too, the "Pocket Nine," that was also brand new on the market. Remember the Pocket Nine? It was hugely anticipated, hugely popular, then the same year they stopped making it along with the other pocket sized guns. This was the Pocket Nine: I kinda maybe recall it. Kinda one of those...see my above post. The Mustang was made for a long time. Lots of people thought highly of it. Colt churned out quite a few pistolas that didn't save them. Some were quite good. I never knew Double Eagles were so reviled until the recent thread. The All American 9 was highly touted by gunwriters back in the day. I never owned one though. But yes, I bought the first Magnum Carry I saw and gave it to my wife, then selling her Detective Special. Her first gun was a 7/8 scale New Frontier 22/22 Mag., that she still has. I then bought her one of those 357/9mm combo Blackhawks with faux Pearl grips. That was replaced by a Charter Off Duty which was superceded by the Detective Special.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Then that is the way it should be looked at...as entertainment based on an incident and that is all... The real shame is if the studio had just done the short chase, firefight and all the rest as accurately as it could have been reconstructed it would have been just as entertaining and dramatic.
Some people wonder why the .38 Special round from McNeil's didn't do a better job on Matix. If you have The Forensic Analysis of the fierfight, on page 25 I think there is the answer. I don't think from the recovered piece of bullet from Matix's sinus is whole in that McNeil hit him directly...I think the bullet hit the window frame of the drivers door and then a piece of the bullet hit Matix in the temple. Otherwise why is the rest of the bullet missing...then of course there is the question of "where did the evidence disappear to" after it was cataloged and photographed the bullet fragment disappeared.....
I've have studied this firefight in detail since shorty after it happened. I was able to collect some tapes from academies that had some of the agents for guest speakers. The more you listen the more unanswered questions there are....
Bob I've been in some shixt before and it's difficult to remember later what exactly went down after it hit the fan. You start trying to remember and it's like trying to recall a dream-maybe you dreamt it and maybe your mind is making it up right now and you think you dreamt it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Army Rangers aren't just plain old regular infantrymen.
Never said they were, but they sure ain't Green Beret either Totally different missions. A graduate of Army Special Forces school is not necessarily better equipped to go into a straight-up battle than an Army Ranger. Fight a counter-insurgency and blend in with the indig population-very much so, but fight a conventional fight? I don't think so.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Then that is the way it should be looked at...as entertainment based on an incident and that is all... The real shame is if the studio had just done the short chase, firefight and all the rest as accurately as it could have been reconstructed it would have been just as entertaining and dramatic.
Some people wonder why the .38 Special round from McNeil's didn't do a better job on Matix. If you have The Forensic Analysis of the fierfight, on page 25 I think there is the answer. I don't think from the recovered piece of bullet from Matix's sinus is whole in that McNeil hit him directly...I think the bullet hit the window frame of the drivers door and then a piece of the bullet hit Matix in the temple. Otherwise why is the rest of the bullet missing...then of course there is the question of "where did the evidence disappear to" after it was cataloged and photographed the bullet fragment disappeared.....
I've have studied this firefight in detail since shorty after it happened. I was able to collect some tapes from academies that had some of the agents for guest speakers. The more you listen the more unanswered questions there are....
Bob I think the bullet degraded in the facial bone as I have seen done in the hunting fields on many occasions
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Regular
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Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..?
You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL.
Bob
Okay, it's not accurate to THAT level of detail. The Hollywood factor kicks in as to how many rounds were fired, and the insertion of the AC556 where there should have been a Mini 14. But overall, how the cars interacted, how they ended up, who was where, who was hit, and where, the use/non-use of cover, etc. All of that was accurate and gave a good general depiction of the shootout. For Hollywood, it was pretty damned good, but at the end of the day, the purpose of the movie was to entertain, not to document. Kevin, I remembered it being a semi auto mini also, thanks for clearing that up. I am in full agreement with 41magfan, it wasn't a failure of hardware. In fact, I attended a 5 day course run by a federal organization which used this shootout as the model for the mindset they wanted us students to adopt. Of course, when they're talking about mindset they meant Platt & Matix, not the good guys. Mireles was the only agent about which they had good things to say. Pete
There is nothing made by man,
which cannot be broken by woman.
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Campfire Ranger
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I think the lessons for that incident are many. Still, I think there was a failure in their hardware and that was an issue, not the issue. A .45 could have made a difference, or maybe not all depends on which load they chose. Back in �86, the Silvertip was THE market leader, and had they had .45�s with Silvertips, it�s doubtful the 185 grain Silvertip would have penetrated any deeper, or perhaps not even as deep as the 9mm version. Regardless, its� all water under the bridge; but the lesson is, you need a certain amount of penetration to get the job done in all situations.
Tactics were horrible, and that probably had more to do with the outcome of the fight than any other single issue. Their adversaries were highly motivated, well trained, and capitalized on the FBI�s somewhat lack of mindset (with some exceptions), tactics and abilities. The tactics of the two assailants were much better, they were better armed, they used their weapons with superior effectiveness and somewhat predictably did a lot of damage.
That incident shined the light on the importance of the projectile, and the lifelong wounds of those FBI agents, as well as the lives of two of them were the inspiration towards excellence in all aspects of firearms training and equipment. We�re all the better for it.
At the time of the incident, the agents were armed with very good equipment. The FBI .38 Special load is still THE benchmark load in that caliber. The 9mm Silvertip remains an excellent performer for personal defense, but penetrates insufficiently for LE use. The S&W revolvers were excellent. And while I�ve always felt the S&W 59 was one of the poorer DA 9mm�s, they all worked as they were supposed to that day. I can�t remember if they had Rem 870�s or Ithaca 37�s, but the 870 is well proven and the 37 if anything is even better; both are still very viable choices today.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The wound to Mireless's arm causing him to hold the shotgun between his legs to work the action is also a lesson learned. This incident caused many agency's to see the benefits of a semi auto shotgun
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Everyone has to remember that there was really only one bad guy in this in fight. If Matix would have stayed in this fight with Platt they would have probaly killed every FBI agent that day.
In my opinion the plain and simple facts are the FBI knew they were after armed men that had shot people in the past and figured that when they yelled FBI they would give up. After they got shot to pieces did they start the "we knew how dangerous they were" bullchit. I think they knew they were dangerous but thought they would give up and planned on them giving up.
I can't imagine going after two guys armed with long guns and having shotguns and rifles available and only taking a pistol. That just does not make any sense to me (or anyone else).
Dink
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certainly no LEO here, just have a strong hunting background.
and even though I often disagree with you and don't like how you put things Dink what you say here rings true with me.
if the job calls for a hammer, bring a big hammer.
imo a handgun is what you use because of it's portability/concealability till you can get to your rifle or or shotgun.
if I'm "invited" to a gunfight, I'm bringing a rifle or shotgun.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Wasn't the FBI carrying 1911s during the Prohibition era?
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The Shot Dove made on Platt was luck according to alot of people that are supposed to be in the "know". Would he have made that lucky shot with a 45? When %20 of the guys in FBI lost thier service pistols before the fight even began you are already having pretty chitty luck.
I have looked at this fight many times and from many different perspectives and it all boils down to the same thing. Those guys did not focus on thier front sights and make good hits. Even with pistols this fight should have ended pretty quickly with all the agents that were on scene. (yes I know thats easy to say when I am not the one that had bullets flying at my azz but in reality their lives depending on them making hits.)
Dink
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In my humble opinion, it was bad tactics that caused the agents to get the hell shot out of them that day. If that situation happened today, it would probably be a whole different story. The one good thing to come out of it, was better training and tactics.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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All this is pretty interesting.
1. I've studied the real gunfighters of the Wild West. One in particular is Doc Holliday. It always interested me why Doc ended up dying in bed in a sanatorium with all the gun fights he is known to have been in. Doc didn't care if he lived or died. He always looked at every gun fight as a good day to die. I believe because he wanted to die he put out an aria that made his opponents hesitant, he won they lost. All successful gunfighters of the day had the attitude of they did not care if they lived or died. If one is going to make a living as a gunfighter one has to have that attitude if one intends to live.
2. Contrary to Hollywood myth most gunfights were fought with rifles and shotguns in the day of the Wild West. Very few were competent enough to fight with handguns.
3. It appears the FBI agents, from the reading, movie bit, and what's been posted so far, the FBI agents went into a gun fight afraid to die. That's a losing attitude.
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Not Green Beret; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Michael Lee Platt (3 February 1954 � 11 April 1986) and William Russell Matix (25 June 1951 � 11 April 1986) met serving in the army. Matix served in the Marine Corps from 1969�1972 and was honorably discharged. In 1973, Matix then enlisted in the army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the army in 1976. Platt enlisted in the army in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers. He was honorably discharged in 1979. The pair met while they were stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky Cannot remember how many times I read that Platt was said to be in an MOS he wasn't, apparently. I believe I even read about that error in John Ross's "Unintended Consequences." But no matter. What Platt was certainly prepared to do that day he went down was certainly "memorable," and infamous!! 
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Wasn't the FBI carrying 1911s during the Prohibition era? It appears the offical side arm was the Colt and S&W full size pistols although eventually they used detective type specials in .38 Special up until the .357 Mag. Hoover hated semi autos or so my Google search shows. Privately, it appears that some FBI agents bought and used some 1911's in .38 Super. I did a little search on the history of the .38 Super for this and the .38 Super is an impressive round even more so with today's modern powders and brass. Quite frankly, if I wasn't an .45ACP man a 1911 in .38 Super would be a good gun to have.
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A couple of random points.
Out here, in liberal Kalifornia, nobody that's been in the Special Forces of any military unit is hired as a cop. Some won't even hire ex US Marines. All are deemed too agressive.
Nowadays, as far I can tell, the Bad Guys kill about the same number of cops as the cops kill BG's. Nice, huh.
I'm not a bit convinced that any police agency has learned much from this and other cop killings. All the training and the best equipment in the world means nothing w/o proper attitude, or mind set. You can't have that and be politically correct nowadays. E
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Part of that is because Hoover's legacy of the first order of business being "DO NOT EMBARRASS THE BUREAU" is alive and well. The poor decision making and tactical maneuvers used that day have been palmed off on not using the right hardware or bullets. Again, Topper, et al have been held up as THE LAST WORD in bullet construction here on these pages. The 147 grain subsonic load is THE best 9mm round for LE...ain't it?
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Wasn't the FBI carrying 1911s during the Prohibition era? It appears the offical side arm was the Colt and S&W full size pistols although eventually they used detective type specials in .38 Special up until the .357 Mag. Hoover hated semi autos or so my Google search shows. Privately, it appears that some FBI agents bought and used some 1911's in .38 Super. I did a little search on the history of the .38 Super for this and the .38 Super is an impressive round even more so with today's modern powders and brass. Quite frankly, if I wasn't an .45ACP man a 1911 in .38 Super would be a good gun to have. I thought the 38 Super sprung from the need to penetrate car doors back in the Roaring 20's...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Wasn't the FBI carrying 1911s during the Prohibition era? It appears the offical side arm was the Colt and S&W full size pistols although eventually they used detective type specials in .38 Special up until the .357 Mag. Hoover hated semi autos or so my Google search shows. Privately, it appears that some FBI agents bought and used some 1911's in .38 Super. I did a little search on the history of the .38 Super for this and the .38 Super is an impressive round even more so with today's modern powders and brass. Quite frankly, if I wasn't an .45ACP man a 1911 in .38 Super would be a good gun to have. I thought the 38 Super sprung from the need to penetrate car doors back in the Roaring 20's... According to the story I Google up that is true in addition to body armour. The .38 Super was an up grade to the .38ACP. Speed than with a 147 grain bullet was about 1200 FPS. Today, the speed supposedly is 1400 FPS with the same bullet. I haven't check to see if that's true.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Jwp, You could be right, but the reality is, in 1986 it's highly unlikely the FBI would ever allow the use of FMJ ammo. And still, there's no guarantee an FMJ would have penetrated in a straight line. Round noses are notorious for not penetrating straight. That's why anyone who knows anything about solid bullets knows to use a flat point design, because the nose of the bullet weighs almost as much as the base. In a round nose, they tend to want to swap ends because he base is heavier. I'm really not sure caliber would have changed anything. In 1986, had they picked a different caliber, chances are, they would have chosen a bullet that would have produced results very similar to the 9mm Silvertip. The thinking at that time was expansion was more important than penetration. We've learned since then.
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According to the story I Google up that is true in addition to body armour. The .38 Super was an up grade to the .38ACP. Speed than with a 147 grain bullet was about 1200 FPS. Today, the speed supposedly is 1400 FPS with the same bullet. I haven't check to see if that's true. Most factory .38 Super's really aren't much more than the 9mm. But there are a few who load the .38 Super to its potential, and when properly loaded, I think the .38 Super is one hell of a good fighting round; especially if barrier penetration is needed. The original 130 ball is a great penetrator, and modern 147's have very few peers in the realm of penetration. It's an excellent round that's largely overlooked. That's mostly because the design of the .38 Super is rather obsolete. It was created specifically to function in a pistol like the 1911 where cartridge overall length plays an important role in the feed reliability of the gun. The 1905 Colt and the 1911 were both designed with a certain cartridge length in mind, and the .38 Super was THE way to make a 9mm work in the 1911 at the time. Now days, we know that you can just modify the feed lips of a magazine to better time the release of the cartrige, and make short cartridges work reliably in the 1911 (like the 9mm & .40).
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the agents had all been issued 45 ACP even will 230 ball ammo the fire fight would have ended quickly. If agent Dove's hit on Platt ass he was exiting through the window would have been with the 45 230 grain FMJ the bullet would have penetrated deeply enough to have destroyed the heart and 30 to 45 seconds is all that Platt could have functioned. The hit on Matrix under the left eye would have take out his spinal column at the neck junction and game over
Jwp, You could be right, but the reality is, in 1986 it's highly unlikely the FBI would ever allow the use of FMJ ammo. And still, there's no guarantee an FMJ would have penetrated in a straight line. Round noses are notorious for not penetrating straight. That's why anyone who knows anything about solid bullets knows to use a flat point design, because the nose of the bullet weighs almost as much as the base. In a round nose, they tend to want to swap ends because he base is heavier. I'm really not sure caliber would have changed anything. In 1986, had they picked a different caliber, chances are, they would have chosen a bullet that would have produced results very similar to the 9mm Silvertip. The thinking at that time was expansion was more important than penetration. We've learned since then. IME the 230 ball will penetrate straight enough to exit an Antelope in a relatively straight fashion on broadside shots. At some point they will indeed yaw and or tumble and go off line. The Flat point is better not only for straight line penetration, but also leave a much larger wound channel and much greater terminal effect, no doubt. The point is that more penetration even with an inferior nose shape would have paid dividends
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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For those that haven't read the FBI report, here's a link. FBI Report Miami Shootout A lot of things could be said about the incident but for me it boils down to 4 things: Bad execution of the takedown in general Piss poor shooting Less than good bullet performance An adversary that was better armed & (maybe) more skilled at gunfighting that the Feds. Though the numbers were greatly on the Fed's side, they got their azzes handed to them in spades. MM
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The Shot Dove made on Platt was luck according to alot of people that are supposed to be in the "know". Would he have made that lucky shot with a 45? When %20 of the guys in FBI lost thier service pistols before the fight even began you are already having pretty chitty luck.
I have looked at this fight many times and from many different perspectives and it all boils down to the same thing. Those guys did not focus on thier front sights and make good hits. Even with pistols this fight should have ended pretty quickly with all the agents that were on scene. (yes I know thats easy to say when I am not the one that had bullets flying at my azz but in reality their lives depending on them making hits.)
Dink So your logic believes that Agent Dove would have missed with a 45? Amazing! I believe that the agents shot extremely well given the circumstances. One of the agents put a bullet in Platt from 35 yards away and into the chest at that. One of them was also wounded 35 yards away. Next time you get in a firefight against a suspect that is firing a semi automatic high capacity rifle at you and is moving in and out of cover at the same time, be sure and let us know what your hit ratio is.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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JWP luck is luck...Dove did not use skill to place that bullet there. Lets just say that the 9mm bullet was doing 1200 fps and the old 45 would have been doing 800 fps. Do you think that the 45 bullet ends up at the same location as the 9mm did? Its a guess plain and simple.
35 yards is and ain't a long way with a pistol. Those agents instead of shooting to hear the guns go off should have been watching there sights and making hits. Really they should have brought rifles to the fight but they did not so they had to fight with what they had.
Platt was one man firing one gun at a time. While he was shooting at one guy the others should have been putting rounds on him. The truth of the matter is they were not mentally prepared for what happened. They lost all mental conrol and fired blindly in the direction of Platt.
So what if Platt was using cover. Were the agents not using cover? Are saying any turd that uses cover in a gunfight should be missed numerous times?
Platt and Matix were out numbered and really outgunned up close. They had the will and the want to win and damn near did. When Platt was shot he carried on with winning the fight unlike some of the agents. It is a good thing that Matix was knocked out from the shot to the sinus cavity or they would have won the fight. Not because they were better gunman but because they had a fighting attitude.
Dink
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How can you or any one else make the claim that skill had nothing to do with agent Dove's shot? Lucky or skill or both it makes zero difference, the bullet was located perfectly given the shot angl presented
35 yards with a had gun in a firefight is considered exceptional shooting
Using cover and laying down an effecting field of fire makes accurate return fire difficult, not impossible but much more difficult, that is why the military does it that way
Last edited by jwp475; 02/01/11.
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There was a article in one of the old Handgun magazines (I think) and they refer to that shot as the million dollar shot. The forensics guys actually figured, with measurments, how that shot was made.
What I am about to post is from memory so part of it could be wrong. Dove made that shot as Platt was either getting out of a car or diving between cars. Platt had his arm in a certain postition to take the bullet where it hit his body (arm up I believe). They knew that both Dove and Platt were moving and the bullet and Platt just happen to come together. If Platt would not have moved exacatly as he did the bullet either would have struck a arm or missed.
There is also another article titled something to effect of Once in Lifetime shots and that shot is discussed in there also.
I also consider 35 yards to good shooting in a fight but there 8 agents involved in the fight and some of them should have made those shots as some were much closer than 35 yards.
Dink
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I see this 1986 firefight as poor plan of attck #1 and lack of adequate firepower. They needed the 10mm caliber instead of what they had at that time.
Now even the 10mm is no real match for a .223 cal rifle in the hands of the bad guy simply put, he has the upper hand in firepower. The FBI should have been armed with rifles also~!!!
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"Million Dollar Shot" was coined by Agent Mireless ( you know the agent that used the shotgun one handed) meaning it was a great shot. Platt was exiting through the car window and was exposed fro only a second or so. From a distance of 30 feet or so and a narrow view agent Dove put the 115 grain 9mm bullet through Platts right bicep the bullet exited the arm and entered the chest cavity in line with the heart. The bullet came to rest short of the heart. This was fatal shot none the less, since the bullet severed a main artery and Platt was bleeding to death. Platt continued to fight for another 4 1/2 minutes. If the bullet would have destroyed the heart 30 to 45 seconds and Platt would have been unable to continue to fight.
I do not believe that Dove was moving when he fired the fatal shot, but he was killed after firing the fatal shot
Make my side arm a 45, I know that it would have sealed the deal with the ammo that I use. Ammo tested by someone that I trust, ME.
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Just a general comment not aimed at anyone specifically. I can't quite get my head around the fascination everyone has with this incident and the need to analyze every second of it, considering the number of police gunfights that occur. The 7 Ps pretty much cover the most important lesson to be learned. With that said, I think long guns in most FBI hands would have made up a lot of the lost ground and ended a lot of the caliber debates.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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The good guys are supposed to win!
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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For Hollywood, it was pretty damned good, but at the end of the day, the purpose of the movie was to entertain, not to document. Fortunately it was only a movie. William Matix survived the film, changed his name to Burt Gummer, and rendered all humanity safe from graboids.
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The account I read said all of the agents had long guns available in their cars, some shotguns and some MP-5's. They also weren't wearing body armor that had been issued to each of them.
They were outsmarted to say the least!
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For Hollywood, it was pretty damned good, but at the end of the day, the purpose of the movie was to entertain, not to document. Fortunately it was only a movie. William Matix survived the film, changed his name to Burt Gummer, and rendered all humanity safe from graboids.  Yep.
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The account I read said all of the agents had long guns available in their cars, some shotguns and some MP-5's. They also weren't wearing body armor that had been issued to each of them.
They were outsmarted to say the least! Body armor would have been no help against the rifle absent hard plates, which they likely didn't have.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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One of the agents did put his body armor on and took a bullet under the armor
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Campfire Kahuna
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The account I read said all of the agents had long guns available in their cars, some shotguns and some MP-5's. They also weren't wearing body armor that had been issued to each of them.
They were outsmarted to say the least! Body armor would have been no help against the rifle absent hard plates, which they likely didn't have. I have to disagree. Body armor is always a help. It may not STOP a 5.56 for instance, if you are only wearing armor rated for stopping .38 Spec. But it may save your life, making the penetration of the rifle round only about half what it would have been. Body Armor underrated for the round coming in may actually stop it if you are far enough away. I don't think the 10 is the magic that some do. I still say the tactics and thinking is what created the bad situation. The FEEBS probably didn't even need to be involved anyway. Maybe if the town cops SWAT had done the takedown there would have been less good guy casualties.
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Campfire Outfitter
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The account I read said all of the agents had long guns available in their cars, some shotguns and some MP-5's. They also weren't wearing body armor that had been issued to each of them.
They were outsmarted to say the least! Body armor would have been no help against the rifle absent hard plates, which they likely didn't have. I have to disagree. Body armor is always a help. It may not STOP a 5.56 for instance, if you are only wearing armor rated for stopping .38 Spec. But it may save your life, making the penetration of the rifle round only about half what it would have been. Body Armor underrated for the round coming in may actually stop it if you are far enough away. I don't think the 10 is the magic that some do. I still say the tactics and thinking is what created the bad situation. The FEEBS probably didn't even need to be involved anyway. Maybe if the town cops SWAT had done the takedown there would have been less good guy casualties. It goes back to jurisdiction regarding bank robberies, it's a Fed. crime. They didn't play well together with local agecies back then. They don't still today, but it's better. Some larger areas have a bank robbery taskforce with local LE assisting the FBI on a fulltime basis. If a BR occurs and local agency responds, FBI is still called and they take over the investigation.
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Just a general comment not aimed at anyone specifically. I can't quite get my head around the fascination everyone has with this incident and the need to analyze every second of it, considering the number of police gunfights that occur. The 7 Ps pretty much cover the most important lesson to be learned. With that said, I think long guns in most FBI hands would have made up a lot of the lost ground and ended a lot of the caliber debates. My fascination with this gunfight is it shows what a determined person can do. Platt faced 8 agents alone for the most part. Killed 2 and wounded 5 others. He should of been taking fire from 8 people at the same time (though 2 agents lost thier gun at start but one did pull a five shot back up). Platt did not care about being shot he continued to try and win the fight. If Matix had also been involved in the fight they would have killed or critically wounded 8 FBI agents half of which had been trained to be on HRT. If the FBI agents would have the mindset of Platt and Matix this would have been a simple gunfight that had long been forgotten by everyone but the guys that were there. Dink
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Campfire Outfitter
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Absolutely. But, we all can get that message without having to argue whether the made for TV movie accurately depicted it and whether a different bullet would have made a difference.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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The gun, bullet, caliber argument will be around forever after this fight. Just think what might have happened if the FBI would have adopted the 9mm instead of the 10mm after this fight...grin. Arguing over a made for TV movie...well you just can't fix some peoples children.. After this fight the FBI did allow personally owned weapons to be carried. After recovering from being shot Agent Mcneill returned to the FBI carrying a sig p226 (or 228) in 9mm. He is supposed to have said that he never wanted to run out of ammo in a fight again. Dink
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Campfire Kahuna
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I owned a 228 for a time and it was a great weapon. It was during the AWB though and extra mags were not easy to come by. I think they cost about $50 apiece at the time, all for a couple of rounds more than the ten rounders. I now have the Smith M&P for my 9 but I have wondered if I would be better armed with the SIG.
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I owned a 228 for a time and it was a great weapon. It was during the AWB though and extra mags were not easy to come by. I think they cost about $50 apiece at the time, all for a couple of rounds more than the ten rounders. I now have the Smith M&P for my 9 but I have wondered if I would be better armed with the SIG. I owned the old SIG P228 myself back in the 1980s and 1990s. My opinion is, although it was an excellent weapon, the S&W is better. No transition from double to single action on the first and second shot. Same trigger pull from first to last, and that's a huge advantage in my book.
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I do know that a 180 grain (1300fps) 10mm bullet out of my Glock model 20 does in fact out penetrates any 9mm Luger round being made and the .45acp 230 grn bullet as well. I ran the tests in wet newspaper 2 years ago.
I am not knocking the .45acp (I carry one!) but I myself like it for more up close and personal situations, not shooting 35 to 50 yards away. The 10mm does a better job penetrating simply put and the FBI would be well served it they were carrying this weapon instead of what they had in the 1980's.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I shoot a 255 grain hard cast that clocks 925 FPS out of my 1911 and it penetrates very well. I guarantee it will leave a mark
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There's a reason why Dirty Harry likes the .44mag!!!!
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Exactly
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Well there is a price to be paid for any round you carry. I stocked up on the Win whitebox 110 .357's because back in the day, Jan Libourel said they were excellent for home defense if you liked your next-door-neighbor. I love my wife and thus don't want collateral damage. The FBI was in a specific situation where they needed more penetration and didn't have it. They took that one fight and extrapolated the results changing the whole of LE thinking about penetration. IMO, the results were, for a time, less than satisfactory. To wit: Do they currently use the 10mm? Sometimes you need penetration. Sometimes you want expansion without the bullet exiting, especially in any scenario where there are bystanders.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Well there is a price to be paid for any round you carry. I stocked up on the Win whitebox 110 .357's because back in the day, Jan Libourel said they were excellent for home defense if you liked your next-door-neighbor. I love my wife and thus don't want collateral damage. The FBI was in a specific situation where they needed more penetration and didn't have it. They took that one fight and extrapolated the results changing the whole of LE thinking about penetration. IMO, the results were, for a time, less than satisfactory. To wit: Do they currently use the 10mm? Sometimes you need penetration. Sometimes you want expansion without the bullet exiting, especially in any scenario where there are bystanders. The FBI found the 10MM to be to much to handle and I heard they down loaded the round to about .45ACP power levels. I think they may use the .40 now but don't know for sure.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Or, you can quit screwin' around and just take care of business, as summarized in a single word: Shotgun.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Well there is a price to be paid for any round you carry. I stocked up on the Win whitebox 110 .357's because back in the day, Jan Libourel said they were excellent for home defense if you liked your next-door-neighbor. I love my wife and thus don't want collateral damage. The FBI was in a specific situation where they needed more penetration and didn't have it. They took that one fight and extrapolated the results changing the whole of LE thinking about penetration. IMO, the results were, for a time, less than satisfactory. To wit: Do they currently use the 10mm? Sometimes you need penetration. Sometimes you want expansion without the bullet exiting, especially in any scenario where there are bystanders. 80 percent of all rounds fired by police are misses if memory serves. The over penetration arguement is over done. By standers are more likely to be hit by misses than from over penetration One always needs enough penetration
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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80 percent of all rounds fired by police are misses if memory serves. The over penetration argument is over done. By standers are more likely to be hit by misses than from over penetration
One always needs enough penetration
True on all counts.......I'll take as much penetration as reasonably possible. I'd rather use ball than a weak HP like the Win Silvertip. MM
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Campfire Ranger
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...80 percent of all rounds fired by police are misses if memory serves. The over penetration arguement is over done. By standers are more likely to be hit by misses than from over penetration
One always needs enough penetration
This is a very tough one. While you need enough penetration, perforation is downright dangerous. There have been more than one LA cops who were shot by their partners after perforating thier intended target, I believe there was even a death or two. Clearly you have to have enough penetration to reach the vitals, but perforation of the target of the target is not cool. This is why I tend to favor JHP's for defense, good penetration, but not too much penetration. The needs of a civilian are much different from that of a cop. Rarely does a civilian need to penetrate through a hardened object. The vast majority are front on confrontations with no intermediate barriers. For that, you just don't need a ton of penetration, 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin is quite adequate. Anything beyond 18" can be a liability. You have to think about the aftermath of a shooting. If someone other than the intended target is hit by one of your bullets, you'll have to answer to that, and answering will be something that could ruin the rest of your life. Let's just pray to God this is only an intellectual exercise.
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My fascination with this gunfight is it shows what a determined person can do. Platt faced 8 agents alone for the most part. Killed 2 and wounded 5 others. He should of been taking fire from 8 people at the same time (though 2 agents lost thier gun at start but one did pull a five shot back up). Platt did not care about being shot he continued to try and win the fight.
If Matix had also been involved in the fight they would have killed or critically wounded 8 FBI agents half of which had been trained to be on HRT. If the FBI agents would have the mindset of Platt and Matix this would have been a simple gunfight that had long been forgotten by everyone but the guys that were there.
Dink
Holy crap, I find myself in agreement with DINK! Good assessment sir.
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Campfire Ranger
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This is why I tend to favor JHP's for defense, good penetration, but not too much penetration.
I agree & carry JHP's but all JHP's are not created equal. I favor Hydra-shoks & Gold Dots, while foregoing Silvertips, for example. This is an ongoing test of bullet performance originally begun as a result of the Miami incident. 45 ACP Performance Data MM
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You have to think about the aftermath of a shooting. If someone other than the intended target is hit by one of your bullets, you'll have to answer to that, and answering will be something that could ruin the rest of your life.
Let's just pray to God this is only an intellectual exercise.
Yep, good points. Might be a worthwhile read: After You Shoot MtnHtr
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Campfire Kahuna
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That's my experience as well. The smaller 9mm and .357 loads with 110-125 gr. HP's kill very well. But if they have to shoot through much, they have little left to do the killing. The 10mm/180 gr. HP and the .45 ACP/230 loads at 900 plus do much better. Or, you can go to the .44 Magnum which really out shines the smaller rounds. E Well there is a price to be paid for any round you carry. I stocked up on the Win whitebox 110 .357's because back in the day, Jan Libourel said they were excellent for home defense if you liked your next-door-neighbor. I love my wife and thus don't want collateral damage. The FBI was in a specific situation where they needed more penetration and didn't have it. They took that one fight and extrapolated the results changing the whole of LE thinking about penetration. IMO, the results were, for a time, less than satisfactory. To wit: Do they currently use the 10mm? Sometimes you need penetration. Sometimes you want expansion without the bullet exiting, especially in any scenario where there are bystanders. 80 percent of all rounds fired by police are misses if memory serves. The over penetration arguement is over done. By standers are more likely to be hit by misses than from over penetration One always needs enough penetration True as true and right as rain but "enough" is truly enough. While bystanders may not be a concern, penetration to the loss of expansion ain't a good thing. If you're using an expanding bullet, you want it to do that, and that usually means stopping some place, preferably in the vitals. You seldom get both penetration and expansion. If a .40 expands to .60 it usually stops...you get the picture. Anyway, it's not all about bystanders, but some of it is.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As far as terminal performance is concerned exits are not a bad thing.
Kevin, I'd like to see the percentage of any LA cops that have been wounded after the bullet exited the bad guy from a solid hit. A very low percntage, I'd say
In the Miami FBI shootout there were 140 rounds fired, a high percentage were misses and residences were hit. This fact is in the Adminstrative Report that I posted. There were many innocent bystanders and none were hit. I am sure that by standers are sometimes hit, but this is rare. I will try my best to consider if or not a bystander may get hit or not before I pull the trigger, but my first matter of concern is to survive.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I was told the FBI carry's .40cal. pistols nowdays, don't really know for sure. Many police departments around me have gone to carrying the .45acp caliber.
I know this much, the 10mm does the job in spades! Now my wife shoots my model 20 Glock in 10mm without any problems, other than more recoil than her .40 cal Glock but nothing she can't handle for a dozen rounds.
So in my eyes, the FBI and other LEO's would be leaps and bounds ahead of the bad guy by carrying the 10mm caliber. The Glocks don't have as much recoil as the Dan Wesson, Smith & Wesson models do. Just my thoughts on the subject and I myself carry every other round as FMJ in both my pistols.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
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Tonk are you saying that you load your pistol one round hollow point, one round FMJ, one round hollow point, etc?
Dink
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What the Miami shootout really showed is bring rifles, shotguns, and fire a lot of penetrating ammo into perps who resist.
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This Country has a severe chronic shortage of dead career criminals
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Campfire Kahuna
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Just read the whole thread and I just backs up my choices that I made when I was a working LEO. The minute we were allowed to go to semi-autos I stuck my .38 Super Commander on my belt loaded with Federal Hydra-Shoks, in the car was an M-1 Carbine with both 110 grain ball & JHP rounds plus my 870 loaded with OO buck.
If I knew or even thought there was gonna be shooting I got out with the Carbine, if clearing a building it was the 870.
Today if I was to be active I would only change the handgun, I would carry my .45 Commander with 230 grain Hydrs-Shoks, I would still bring the carbine & 870. And pray every night before bed to NEVER need them!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Campfire Kahuna
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As far as terminal performance is concerned exits are not a bad thing.
I will try my best to consider if or not a bystander may get hit or not before I pull the trigger, but my first matter of concern is to survive.
First off, that is not true all the time. If you have a non-expanding bullet, the terminal performance is not hindered and in fact, may be helped by a longer wound channel. The main thing that stops fights though, is hitting vital organs, in which case larger diameter wounds are a big help and we only have so much velocity to use in the creation of a wound channel. To wit: If the bullet expands it travels less far than one which doesn't, given the same velocity. So if a bullet is not expanding, it is not as likely to hit vitals and it is also creating a smaller diameter wound channel. The only value of exiting is a second hole to bleed from and bleeding out is a much less desirable method of stopping a fight than hitting vitals. (ie disruption of the CNS or cardio pulmonary system.) Generally speaking, you have less expansion from deeply penetrating rounds. If penetration is all you seek, FMJ Ball is as good as anything. Regardless of what your views on Marshall are, 45 autos stopping people 9 times out of 10 with Ball Ammo has been thoroughly debunked. The problem of bullets exiting and hitting unintentional targets is a separate but related concern. Secondly, if you are only worried about bystanders as sort of a secondary concern, as your post kind of suggests, then you need to re-think. It ain't ethical to throw shots around to save yourself while killing innocents who just happen to be there too. Each shootout is different and there may be other concerns, but this is a general rule and is taught in any CCW class in the country. Also, if you do hit somebody who is not involved in the fracas, you are almost guaranteed to be beaten in the civil suit to follow and you will probably do jail time after you are hit with criminal charges. The rule of the Jungle is to survive, but in civilization laws have been created to protect the innocent. You can't survive at the expense of innocents without consequences. I will say I think you already know all this, but your post doesn't relate that knowledge.
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If I knew or even thought there was gonna be shooting I got out with the Carbine, if clearing a building it was the 870. Most of the security gents I worked around (not with) in the Katrina aftermath got out of vehicles with M4's and cleared buildings with pump shotguns, usually 870's. You would have fit right in. 
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Luckily I don't know what it is like to hit an innocent person by mistake. Thank God for that.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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To wit: If the bullet expands it travels less far than one which doesn't, given the same velocity. Yep, and that statement is a good summary of why the kinetic energy of a bullet really does matter, regardless of who understands that or not. When kinetic energy is converted to thermal energy, work is done. Work is defined as a force applied over a distance. If the bullet expands, it deccelerates faster, meaning that it imparts more energy on its target at the expense of penetration. And vice versa. The conversion of kinetic energy demonstrates how expansion and penetration are related.
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Campfire Ranger
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The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. ....and as ignorant about their weapons as most cops I know.
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
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DINK yes I do and it works just fine for me!
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GOD Bless Them All
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DINK yes I do and it works just fine for me! I am sure it works just fine but I am not sure how it will fly in court for you if you ever have to use your gun. I arrested a guy one night that had a pistol loaded the same way it was made a big deal in court. Now keep in mind the guy was turd and could not legally have any firearm anyway. I don't know how it would go in a self defense shooting. Dink
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is.
I've also noticed that those who worry about other people while trying to engage a BG in a gunfight often don't prevail. That's because it takes all of the concentration you have just to hit the guy and put him down. Trying to "multitask" in a gunfight is a good way to give away the fight.
Now, if you want to argue that you'd feel terrible if you shot somebody by mistake, no matter the circumstances, be my guest. I'd feel terrible if I couldn't get the job done due to poor ammo or gun choice and some innocent died. Or, even worse, me. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is.
I've also noticed that those who worry about other people while trying to engage a BG in a gunfight often don't prevail. That's because it takes all of the concentration you have just to hit the guy and put him down. Trying to "multitask" in a gunfight is a good way to give away the fight.
Now, if you want to argue that you'd feel terrible if you shot somebody by mistake, no matter the circumstances, be my guest. I'd feel terrible if I couldn't get the job done due to poor ammo or gun choice and some innocent died. Or, even worse, me. E A post that is spot on, from some one that gets it. Bravo
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Kevin, I'd like to see the percentage of any LA cops that have been wounded after the bullet exited the bad guy from a solid hit. A very low percntage, I'd say I only know of two incidents, one involved the death of the partner. Where the intended target was shot and under what circumstances I really don't know; but honestly I don't have to know. I know enough about ballistics to know what bullets do. If a bullet penetrates 20 or more inches in ballistic gelatin then there's a good chance it will completely perforate a center hit bad guy and still be lethal after leaving the bad guy's body. Considering the fact that were just as likely to be hit by lightning as to find ourselves in a gunfight, the odds are in our favor. Each of us need to decide for ourselves how concerned we need to be about bullets that perforate their intended target. I've come to terms on this subject and so have you; we disagree. No big deal, we're both intelligent gentlemen who have intelligently and even somewhat scientifically considered the topic(you and I have both done a significant amount of bullet testing), and came to slightly different conclusions. I don't know that there is a 100% "right" answer to this one. We choose the ammunition that best suits our situation and needs.
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Campfire Sage
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is.
I've also noticed that those who worry about other people while trying to engage a BG in a gunfight often don't prevail. That's because it takes all of the concentration you have just to hit the guy and put him down. Trying to "multitask" in a gunfight is a good way to give away the fight.
Now, if you want to argue that you'd feel terrible if you shot somebody by mistake, no matter the circumstances, be my guest. I'd feel terrible if I couldn't get the job done due to poor ammo or gun choice and some innocent died. Or, even worse, me. E A post that is spot on, from some one that gets it. Bravo I tend to agree, but would you feel quite the same way if the gun fight were going on in the upstairs hall of your home with your wife and kids asleep in various rooms? I could imagine a rationale for seeing it exactly the same. Just wondering what your response would be.
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Campfire Ranger
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I was told the FBI carry's .40cal. pistols nowdays, don't really know for sure. Many police departments around me have gone to carrying the .45acp caliber.
I know this much, the 10mm does the job in spades! Now my wife shoots my model 20 Glock in 10mm without any problems, other than more recoil than her .40 cal Glock but nothing she can't handle for a dozen rounds.
So in my eyes, the FBI and other LEO's would be leaps and bounds ahead of the bad guy by carrying the 10mm caliber. The Glocks don't have as much recoil as the Dan Wesson, Smith & Wesson models do. Just my thoughts on the subject and I myself carry every other round as FMJ in both my pistols. Last time I checked, the FBI could carry a number of guns/calibers from 9mm to .45. The 10mm is a great cartridge, but it's not THE right cartridge for everyone, which I believe is why the FBI offers some variety in what their agents can carry. But even when carrying the 10mm, the FBI carries the down loaded (10mm lite) version of the 10mm with ballistics similar to the .40 S&W. What's interesting to note is most surgeons will tell you there isn't a ton of difference between JHP's and FMJ's when it comes to actual tissue destruction. Yeah, there may be a huge difference on paper when we measure the two in ballistic gelatin. But something many people fail to understand is what it all equates to when measured against the target. A .45 caliber hole when measured against the average human torso, becomes a very small hole indeed. Spreading that hole out to .60 sounds really impressive on paper, but when you compare it to the torso, it really doesn't make nearly as huge of a difference in comparison to the target shot, as it looks on paper. Bullets, caliber & guns...None of them will ever compensate for bad bullet placement. Hitting your target trumps everything.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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TRH, would I be concerned about my family? You bet I would be concerned and if I lost the fight there is no doubt that their safety would now be in the hands of the intruder. One must win against an armed advisary in ones home, that is the bottom line. Thoughts and planing if this unthinkable were to ever happen must be done before the confrontation begins, not after
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is. I don't know the law well enough to really know; but this doesn't sound right to me. If you're in a gunfight, at some point YOU make the decision to deploy your firearm, and when your gun comes out, YOU are responsible for what happens/happened as a direct consequence of pulling your gun. Now some states (and this is all on a state by state basis) make provision for the use of lethal force to defend against those committing a felony, but most states don't. Now Emericus, you're a cop, and as a cop, what you said definitely applies, because cops have different rules than us civvies. I don't mean to offend, but I don't believe your statement is true; certainly not in some states (Maryland, New Hampshire, etc.), and could be true in others. But one should heed this piece of advice: Never take any legal element for granted; find out for sure.
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Campfire Regular
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is.
I've also noticed that those who worry about other people while trying to engage a BG in a gunfight often don't prevail. That's because it takes all of the concentration you have just to hit the guy and put him down. Trying to "multitask" in a gunfight is a good way to give away the fight.
Now, if you want to argue that you'd feel terrible if you shot somebody by mistake, no matter the circumstances, be my guest. I'd feel terrible if I couldn't get the job done due to poor ammo or gun choice and some innocent died. Or, even worse, me. E Very well said, E!
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Campfire Ranger
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TRH, would I be concerned about my family? You bet I would be concerned and if I lost the fight there is no doubt that their safety would now be in the hands of the intruder. One must win against an armed advisary in ones home, that is the bottom line. Thoughts and planing if this unthinkable were to ever happen must be done before the confrontation begins, not after
No doubt, truely the unthinkable! In my home, the layout is such that my kids would very likely be on the other side of the bad guy I'm shooting. So when I'm at home, I'm quite likely to favor the less penetrating rounds such as the Hornady 200gr XTP or 185 grain Silvertip for my .45. In a 9mm it would be 115's inside the house. Since it's inside the house, I'm not concerned about barrier penetration; there's nothing a 185 grain Silvertip won't go through in my house with the exception of my gun safe. So when we size up the security situation, we have to make some assumptions. In my case, I assume I won't have anything tougher than wallboard to shoot through inside the house. I also assume no body armor, just clothes. If I use the 200gr Hornady or 185 Silvertip, I'm intentionally choosing expansion over penetration because I will not tolerate the thought of over penetration at all, because my kids are very likely to be on the other side of the target. Now pull me outside the house, and things get very different. But then again, if I'm responding to an indident outside the house, chances are, I have enough time to respond with a rifle instead of a pistol.
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Campfire Sage
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TRH, would I be concerned about my family? You bet I would be concerned and if I lost the fight there is no doubt that their safety would now be in the hands of the intruder. One must win against an armed advisary in ones home, that is the bottom line. Thoughts and planing if this unthinkable were to ever happen must be done before the confrontation begins, not after
Good answer.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is. I don't know the law well enough to really know; but this doesn't sound right to me. If you're in a gunfight, at some point YOU make the decision to deploy your firearm, and when your gun comes out, YOU are responsible for what happens/happened as a direct consequence of pulling your gun. Now some states (and this is all on a state by state basis) make provision for the use of lethal force to defend against those committing a felony, but most states don't. Now Emericus, you're a cop, and as a cop, what you said definitely applies, because cops have different rules than us civvies. I don't mean to offend, but I don't believe your statement is true; certainly not in some states (Maryland, New Hampshire, etc.), and could be true in others. But one should heed this piece of advice: Never take any legal element for granted; find out for sure. I recall learning this in law school. If your shoot is justified, you are not liable criminally or civilly for stray bullets, but the bad actor, or his estate, is. That is, at least, the common law on the matter. I don't know if there are any states that deviate substantively from this common law rule.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is.
I've also noticed that those who worry about other people while trying to engage a BG in a gunfight often don't prevail. That's because it takes all of the concentration you have just to hit the guy and put him down. Trying to "multitask" in a gunfight is a good way to give away the fight.
Now, if you want to argue that you'd feel terrible if you shot somebody by mistake, no matter the circumstances, be my guest. I'd feel terrible if I couldn't get the job done due to poor ammo or gun choice and some innocent died. Or, even worse, me. E Bullshixt.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A couple of things here guys.
First of all, if you are defending yourself, under attack, you are not civily or crimminaly repsonsible for any outcome, including your unintentional killing of another. The guy that started the fight is. I don't know the law well enough to really know; but this doesn't sound right to me. If you're in a gunfight, at some point YOU make the decision to deploy your firearm, and when your gun comes out, YOU are responsible for what happens/happened as a direct consequence of pulling your gun. Now some states (and this is all on a state by state basis) make provision for the use of lethal force to defend against those committing a felony, but most states don't. Now Emericus, you're a cop, and as a cop, what you said definitely applies, because cops have different rules than us civvies. I don't mean to offend, but I don't believe your statement is true; certainly not in some states (Maryland, New Hampshire, etc.), and could be true in others. But one should heed this piece of advice: Never take any legal element for granted; find out for sure. I recall learning this in law school. If your shoot is justified, you are not liable criminally or civilly for stray bullets, but the bad actor, or his estate, is. That is, at least, the common law on the matter. I don't know if there are any states that deviate substantively from this common law rule. I'm not a lawyer, but if this were true, you wouldn't have so many CCW class instructors stressing not hitting innocents. The first thing is though, I personally am not going to kill three or four bystanders just so I survive. If watching your front sight and killing only bad guys gets me wasted, so be it, but I am not going to go out having kilt a bunch of innocent people. You have that mindset and the legalities don't come into play.
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Campfire Tracker
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I am pretty sure if you fire the bullet you are responsible for that bullet. If it hits anyone or anything I think you will have to pay.
If I am working and bounce a bullet into something or someone the city I work for is probaly going to have to pay. I don't really see what the difference would be if I was defending my life while working or not. I will ask though and get a good answer for this in this state.
Dink
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I'm not a lawyer, but if this were true, you wouldn't have so many CCW class instructors stressing not hitting innocents.
The first thing is though, I personally am not going to kill three or four bystanders just so I survive. If watching your front sight and killing only bad guys gets me wasted, so be it, but I am not going to go out having kilt a bunch of innocent people. You have that mindset and the legalities don't come into play. Wasn't making a value judgment, Cole, but the reason I remember this so clearly is that it was a bit surprising when I first learned it. Upon reflection, however, it made logical sense to me that the bad actor bears the full measure of blame for what the innocent are forced by his actions to do in defense of their lives or the lives of innocent others.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm not a lawyer, but if this were true, you wouldn't have so many CCW class instructors stressing not hitting innocents.
The first thing is though, I personally am not going to kill three or four bystanders just so I survive. If watching your front sight and killing only bad guys gets me wasted, so be it, but I am not going to go out having kilt a bunch of innocent people. You have that mindset and the legalities don't come into play. Wasn't making a value judgment, Cole, but the reason I remember this so clearly is that it was a bit surprising when I first learned it. Upon reflection, however, it made logical sense to me that the bad actor bears the full measure of blame for what the innocent are forced by his actions to do in defense of their lives or the lives of innocent others. I think you are wrong Hawk.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I'm not a lawyer, but if this were true, you wouldn't have so many CCW class instructors stressing not hitting innocents.
The first thing is though, I personally am not going to kill three or four bystanders just so I survive. If watching your front sight and killing only bad guys gets me wasted, so be it, but I am not going to go out having kilt a bunch of innocent people. You have that mindset and the legalities don't come into play. Wasn't making a value judgment, Cole, but the reason I remember this so clearly is that it was a bit surprising when I first learned it. Upon reflection, however, it made logical sense to me that the bad actor bears the full measure of blame for what the innocent are forced by his actions to do in defense of their lives or the lives of innocent others. I think you are wrong Hawk. I don't believe so, since my memory of it seems fresh to me, but I'm open to evidence that I'm wrong. I don't have a Restatement of Criminal Law (or Tort Law) handy to look it up in, and Google isn't much help on this specific a legal question. I'd need to visit a law library or use one of the law specific websites that charges a pretty penny to join. If I still had my notebooks from law school, that would do the job too. I still have my Criminal Law and Tort Law textbooks, but they are in New York in my parents' garage.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'm not a lawyer, but if this were true, you wouldn't have so many CCW class instructors stressing not hitting innocents.
The first thing is though, I personally am not going to kill three or four bystanders just so I survive. If watching your front sight and killing only bad guys gets me wasted, so be it, but I am not going to go out having kilt a bunch of innocent people. You have that mindset and the legalities don't come into play. Wasn't making a value judgment, Cole, but the reason I remember this so clearly is that it was a bit surprising when I first learned it. Upon reflection, however, it made logical sense to me that the bad actor bears the full measure of blame for what the innocent are forced by his actions to do in defense of their lives or the lives of innocent others. I think you are wrong Hawk. I don't believe so, since my memory of it seems fresh to me, but I'm open to evidence that I'm wrong. I don't have a Restatement of Criminal Law (or Tort Law) handy to look it up in, and Google isn't much help on this specific a legal question. I'd need to visit a law library or use one of the law specific websites that charges a pretty penny to join. If I still had my notebooks from law school, that would do the job too. I still have my Criminal Law and Tort Law textbooks, but they are in New York in my parents garage. Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want. Swifty
Last edited by Swifty52; 02/05/11.
Swifty
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Campfire Sage
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty If reality were determined democratically, you guys would win on this one. To take it even further, in many jurisdictions, if the bad guy survives the shooting, he can be charged with the murder of the person you (the self defense shooter) accidentally shot when you were defending yourself. That's called felony murder.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty If reality were determined democratically, you guys would win on this one. To take it even further, in many jurisdictions, if the bad guy survives the shooting, he can be charged with the murder of the person you (the self defense shooter) accidentally shot when you were defending yourself. That's called felony murder. That sounds really good but Sopranoes and Scarface aside, most bad guys don't have much money, whereas most good guys do. Who do you think will get sued in Civil Court? You take some shots and you will be held responsible for each and every one. Make no mistake about it.
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Campfire Sage
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty If reality were determined democratically, you guys would win on this one. To take it even further, in many jurisdictions, if the bad guy survives the shooting, he can be charged with the murder of the person you (the self defense shooter) accidentally shot when you were defending yourself. That's called felony murder. That sounds really good but Sopranoes and Scarface aside, most bad guys don't have much money, whereas most good guys do. Who do you think will get sued in Civil Court? You take some shots and you will be held responsible for each and every one. Make no mistake about it. Like I said, you're not liable for shots fired with self-defense justification. That's civilly or criminally. That's the common law rule, but there may be some oddball jurisdictions that substantively depart from it.
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Campfire Sage
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Cole, I found it. In criminal law, it's called the doctrine of excused homicide, and in tort law it's called the doctrine of transferred privilege.
Stated simply, in the absence of negligence (i.e., if your actions in self-defense would be deemed reasonable by the standard of the ordinary prudent person), the privilege of self-defense protects one from liability when a third party is accidentally (i.e., not the object of your intention) injured or killed (Restatement (Second) of Torts � 75). The rule is identical in criminal law.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty
YOu are incorrect on this point for sure. One will not go to jail if one mistakenly or accidentaly hits an inocent in defense of ones life. One may get sued for the unitended consequence, but no criminal action
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty
YOu are incorrect on this point for sure. One will not go to jail if one mistakenly or accidentaly hits an inocent in defense of ones life. One may get sued for the unitended consequence, but no criminal action Not liable civilly either. Read my post above. The rule is based on the 1864 case of Morris v. Platt. This legal doctrine has been interpreted even to go so far as to protect you from liability if the assailant, against whom you are defending yourself, uses an innocent third party as a human shield, and you shoot back to save your life, killing the innocent human shield in the process. No liability on your part so long as standard self-defense justification is demonstrated. It's strictly the liability (both criminally and civilly) of the assailant who used the innocent third party as a human shield.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.
Swifty
YOu are incorrect on this point for sure. One will not go to jail if one mistakenly or accidentaly hits an inocent in defense of ones life. One may get sued for the unitended consequence, but no criminal action You can believe whatever you wish, but belief will not make it so. You shoot somebody's kid in defense of your own life, with one of your super penetrator's or whatever, and you are gonna pay. You may not go to jail dependent upon the circumstances, but you are probably gonna pay.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Super penetrater?? What the hell are you talking about?
Cole, you might want to learn a bit before you go spouting off, but maybe not. it's never stopped you before
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm not familar with the laws in other states. But I do know California law. In spite of the fact that they are very liberal, to the point where you are required to keep your guns unloaded and under lock and key at all times, the law makes very clear just who is responsible for any deaths or injuries that occur during the commisson of a felony. If a death occurs during the commisson of a robbery, a burgulary, a kidnapping or a rape, no matter what or who caused it, those who commit the above crime(s) are also guilty of first degree murder.
Same thing in a civil action. Even if the shooter goes beyond his legal right to use deadly force, he is not civily liable to the aggressor. That may not include any innocent bystanders, but we are talking about a guy that has no legal right to use deadly force at this point. Say a guy that fires a warning shot at a guy who is threatning to punch his nose and is closing on the victim to carry out his threat. If the shot glances off of the pavement and clips an innocent bystander, he is liable. But not if the shot hits the aggressor.
He may well be charged with and gulity of other crimes, like discharging a firearm, etc.
He may be arrested and he may be sued. Heck, I can just about guarantee that, at least in this state, you kill anybody and you may well be sued. Even in a clear cut case of self defense. If the shooting is in a gray area of the law, he probably will be charged with a crime. And he might loose at the trial level. I've seen it happen.
But the bottom line is that you have a much better chance of surviving a trial or a lawsuit than you do at the hands of some Bad Guy.
BTW, I'm not a cop. Haven't been one for quite a while. E
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Campfire Ranger
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Kevin, I disagree. There is a significant difference just between the wound channel and tissue destruction left from a round nose, FMJ bullet and a classic wadcutter. Even on small animals. Between a high speed, shorter hollow point and a somewhat heavier classic wadcutter there is another significant difference.
For example, I know, personally, two guys who were shot in the meaty part of the thigh with a .357. One took an AP round through the thigh during a gunfight courtesy of his partner. Didn't even realize he's been shot. Could put weight on and walk with his leg. Not even much bleeding. The other guy took a hollow point through the thigh. He didn't think he'd been shot either. But when he tried to stand using the leg, he went face down right now. Came close to bleeding to death from the wound. The guy who pulled the trigger, another cop who wanted to examine his new gun, said later he saw daylight, briefly, through the bullet hole. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna Dude you need to pack the bowl a little less tight when you type this stuff. Sincerely.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna you need to pack the bowl a little less tight when you type this stuff. Sincerely. DUDE, need to get a clue, sinerely
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
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Gotta admit, I haven't waded thru all these posts. But one thing I haven't seen mentioned is Tactics . Being a soldier and being a police office are two differant disciplines. I've been both.
Police officers usually face a Fleeing felon. Bad guy shoots while trying to get away. Fleeing is the operative word.
Rangers are tought to operate as a team and to Advance Under Fire . In this case the bad guys advanced under fire and operated as a team which is something the average cop does not expect. Plus the bad guys had superior fire power. SWAT teams prepare for this, a random collection of peace officers does not.
If the unfortunate FBI officers were all armed with 45's vs 9mms it likely would not have mattered. Had they been trained to operate as a team and were armed with rifles, the outcome would, in all likelyhood been much differant.
For what it's worth Jerry Dove's brother operates a custom gun shop in WVA and is a heck of a nice guy.
O
Too old to suffer fools
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
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Food for thought. I remember when this took place a couple of years ago. One reason the prosecutors went after the shooter was because he used a 10mm. And this is from a very pro-gun state Arizona. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/05/16/20090516hikershooter0516.htmlHiker who shot man says he'd do it again Case altered self-defense law; 5 years later, he awaits appeal by Peter Corbett - May. 16, 2009 12:00 AM The Arizona Republic The prosecution of Harold Fish for second-degree murder led to a change in Arizona's self-defense law, but the change came too late to keep the former Tolleson teacher out of prison. Fish, 62, is serving a 10-year sentence for killing a man on a hiking trail north of Payson five years ago this week. Fish fatally shot Grant Kuenzli, 43, saying the man and his dogs charged at him on a trail in the Coconino National Forest. "The choice was this: Use the firearm or let (Kuenzli) kill me or seriously hurt me," Fish said in a recent telephone interview from the Arizona State Prison Complex- Lewis near Buckeye. "I would do the same thing again today because I didn't have any choice. That gun saved my life." A Coconino County investigator believed that Fish acted in self-defense based on Fish's statements and limited evidence at the scene. Prosecutors saw it differently and charged him with second-degree murder. Fish was convicted in June 2006. He must serve until June 2016 unless the conviction is overturned. The Arizona Court of Appeals reviewed Fish's appeal last July but has not ruled on it yet. Fish's case sparked debate about self-defense, drawing national attention from gun-rights advocates. The National Rifle Association contributed to Fish's defense. Unconvinced jurors During the trial, jurors were not convinced that Fish was justified in shooting Kuenzli to protect himself. At the time of the shooting, Arizona's self-defense law required that a person claiming self-defense must prove that his or her actions were reasonable and justified. The law was changed in 2006 just before Fish's trial. It now puts the burden of proof on prosecutors to prove that shooters were not justified in using deadly force to protect themselves. Fish's attorney, Melvin McDonald, lobbied for that change in the Arizona Legislature before Fish's case went to trial. Then-Gov. Janet Napolitano vetoed two bills that would have made the change in the self-defense law retroactive to his case. 'Classic' self-defense "The state finally got it right, but they didn't give it to me," Fish said. "It is a bitter, cruel irony." NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said Wednesday that the shooting "was a classic case of a good person acting in self-defense." The group is holding its national convention Friday through Sunday in Phoenix. Arulanandam said the prosecutor manipulated the legal system to exclude "the mental history of the attacker (Kuenzli)." Hike ends in tragedy Fish, a father of seven who taught English and Spanish at Tolleson High School for 27 years, was completing a daylong hike along a forested trail north of Strawberry on May 11, 2004, when he fired the fatal shots from a Kimber 10mm handgun that he was legally carrying. Kuenzli, unemployed and living out of his car, was camped at the trailhead with three dogs. Fish said he saw Kuenzli's car and was relieved that his 10-mile hike was nearly over. Just then, Kuenzli's dogs charged down the hill, barking and snarling at him. Single warning shot Fish said he yelled to Kuenzli to call off his dogs. He fired a warning shot into the ground. The dogs veered off the trail, Fish said. Suddenly, Fish said, Kuenzli charged down the hill, swinging his fists and threatening to kill him. Fish dropped Kuenzli with three shots to his chest. Kuenzli fell dead in the dirt at Fish's feet. Members of the grand jury later asked Fish why he had fired a warning shot at the dogs but did not do the same for Kuenzli. Fish said he did not have time and had been trained not to fire warning shots. Victim's past at issue Kuenzli was unarmed, but the defense argued that a screwdriver in his pocket could have been used as a weapon. Judge Mark Moran of Coconino County Superior Court did not allow that evidence into the trial. The issue is part of Fish's appeal. McDonald also tried to introduce evidence about Kuenzli's mental-health problems, a domestic-violence incident and previous heated encounters Kuenzli had had with police, court officials and strangers. Moran excluded testimony about any prior confrontations. The legal theory was that Fish did not know of Kuenzli's mental stability when they squared off, so it was irrelevant. "Baloney!" Fish said. "If you look in the eyes of a man who wants to kill, you know he's not right. I'll never forget those eyes. This guy was as nutty as anyone I've ever seen." McDonald said he hopes the Arizona Court of Appeals will overturn Fish's conviction and set him free so he can return to his wife and family. Family is still hopeful For three years, Debora Fish has been raising their seven children, ages 5 to 20, without her husband. She supports the family with his retirement income and her paycheck from a nursing home. "We're keeping our heads above water," she said, adding that the family is eager for a ruling that would overturn the conviction and free her husband without another expensive trial. Flagstaff attorneys John Trebon and Lee Phillips filed an appeal for Fish in April 2008. Coconino County prosecutor Michael Lessler said he is awaiting the appellate court's decision, but he declined to speculate about the outcome. After the trial verdict nearly three years ago, Lessler said of the shooting that Fish "engaged in conduct that the law just can't accept." Kuenzli's sister, Linda Almeter, said Fish was unhurt in the deadly encounter and did nothing to substantiate his self-defense claim. "He didn't have a button missing from his shirt," she said. "I think justice put him where he is, and he needs to stay there," she said. 'God and I are OK' Fish, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said he has had a lot of time to reflect about what happened five years ago. "God and I are OK with this," Fish said of the shooting. Did he pray for Kuenzli? "I wish I could say I did," Fish said, adding that it would be hypocritical for him to do that. As prisoner No. 208513, Fish spends his time reading and watching TV. His family visits every week. "It's not a happy place," he said of prison. "It's not meant to be an experience you want to repeat." 'Innocent citizen' Fish will be 69 years old when he is released unless Trebon and Phillips succeed in getting his conviction overturned sooner. People empathize with Fish because he went to prison for defending himself, Trebon said. "Here's an ordinary, innocent citizen in a life-and-death situation," the attorney said. "He makes the most reasonable decision under the circumstances and then is second-guessed by people who didn't have to live through that situation."
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218 |
The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight. In a nutshell, that's pretty much it. Lack of training and lack of itel...not being armed with a 500 S&W... was the reason for this disaster. O
Too old to suffer fools
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,557 |
Our local LEOs learned from the North Hollywood Shootout the failure of bringing pistols & shotguns to a rifle fight. Today, they all have a rifle in the trunk for emergencies. The LEO at the school where I work has an AR15 in the trunk of his vehicle. Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with 9 mm or .38 Special pistols on their person, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried fully automatic rifles, with ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor, and wore military grade body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' efforts were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with weapons that could penetrate and several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. That local dealer was B&B Gun Sales. A great shop that is now gone.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
Unfortunately, if you don't want to be coinvicted on some sort of murder charge, you pretty much have to be able to prove you had grounds to use deadly force. I've seen convictions here in liberal Kalifornia that were better cases that that one. Juries tend to ignore the resonable doubt law on the subject and the probable cause definations. We, BTW, have no legal requirement that the shooter must prove his innocence.
Joe Average Citizen simply gets too upset when anybody kills another. He insists on proof of the need to use deadly force. Cops, BTW, are usually held to an even higher standard than average citizens. It's too bad, really. Big Guys often play this angle quite well. E
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