24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Swifty52

Would have to agree with Cole on this, here in this state, You are held responsible in Civil court for the shots you make. Even the BG or his Estate if that be the end result can Sue you. The perp and his estate may not win, but an innocent bystander hit by one of your stray rounds will, and if you do hit an innocent bystander, you will definately go to jail for it. This applys even if in your own home. We have no Castle Doctrine, and as the law is written now you must make every effort to retreat from the confrontation, even if it means running out of your house while the BG do what they want.

Swifty



YOu are incorrect on this point for sure. One will not go to jail if one mistakenly or accidentaly hits an inocent in defense of ones life. One may get sued for the unitended consequence, but no criminal action

You can believe whatever you wish, but belief will not make it so. You shoot somebody's kid in defense of your own life, with one of your super penetrator's or whatever, and you are gonna pay. You may not go to jail dependent upon the circumstances, but you are probably gonna pay.

GB1

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6
J
jwp475 Online Sleepy OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6


Super penetrater?? What the hell are you talking about?

Cole, you might want to learn a bit before you go spouting off, but maybe not. it's never stopped you before



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
I'm not familar with the laws in other states. But I do know California law. In spite of the fact that they are very liberal, to the point where you are required to keep your guns unloaded and under lock and key at all times, the law makes very clear just who is responsible for any deaths or injuries that occur during the commisson of a felony. If a death occurs during the commisson of a robbery, a burgulary, a kidnapping or a rape, no matter what or who caused it, those who commit the above crime(s) are also guilty of first degree murder.
Same thing in a civil action. Even if the shooter goes beyond his legal right to use deadly force, he is not civily liable to the aggressor. That may not include any innocent bystanders, but we are talking about a guy that has no legal right to use deadly force at this point. Say a guy that fires a warning shot at a guy who is threatning to punch his nose and is closing on the victim to carry out his threat. If the shot glances off of the pavement and clips an innocent bystander, he is liable. But not if the shot hits the aggressor.
He may well be charged with and gulity of other crimes, like discharging a firearm, etc.
He may be arrested and he may be sued. Heck, I can just about guarantee that, at least in this state, you kill anybody and you may well be sued. Even in a clear cut case of self defense. If the shooting is in a gray area of the law, he probably will be charged with a crime. And he might loose at the trial level. I've seen it happen.
But the bottom line is that you have a much better chance of surviving a trial or a lawsuit than you do at the hands of some Bad Guy.
BTW, I'm not a cop. Haven't been one for quite a while. E

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Kevin, I disagree. There is a significant difference just between the wound channel and tissue destruction left from a round nose, FMJ bullet and a classic wadcutter. Even on small animals. Between a high speed, shorter hollow point and a somewhat heavier classic wadcutter there is another significant difference.
For example, I know, personally, two guys who were shot in the meaty part of the thigh with a .357. One took an AP round through the thigh during a gunfight courtesy of his partner. Didn't even realize he's been shot. Could put weight on and walk with his leg. Not even much bleeding. The other guy took a hollow point through the thigh. He didn't think he'd been shot either. But when he tried to stand using the leg, he went face down right now. Came close to bleeding to death from the wound. The guy who pulled the trigger, another cop who wanted to examine his new gun, said later he saw daylight, briefly, through the bullet hole. E

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6
J
jwp475 Online Sleepy OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6

The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member

You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IC B2

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Originally Posted by jwp475

The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member

You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna
Dude you need to pack the bowl a little less tight when you type this stuff. Sincerely.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6
J
jwp475 Online Sleepy OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980
Likes: 6
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by jwp475

The last people hung in the state of La. were hung in Caldwell parish where my grandfather was sherrif. A menber of the posy was killed the aprehenchen of the escaped convicts. The evidence points to the fact that the posy member was accidently killed by others in the posy, but the excaped prisoners were tried andd found guilty for the murder of the posy member

You can read about it here, Last Hanging In Louisianna
Dude you need to pack the bowl a little less tight when you type this stuff. Sincerely.



DUDE, need to get a clue, sinerely




I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218
O
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
O
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218
Gotta admit, I haven't waded thru all these posts. But one thing I haven't seen mentioned is Tactics . Being a soldier and being a police office are two differant disciplines. I've been both.

Police officers usually face a Fleeing felon. Bad guy shoots while trying to get away. Fleeing is the operative word.

Rangers are tought to operate as a team and to Advance Under Fire . In this case the bad guys advanced under fire and operated as a team which is something the average cop does not expect. Plus the bad guys had superior fire power. SWAT teams prepare for this, a random collection of peace officers does not.

If the unfortunate FBI officers were all armed with 45's vs 9mms it likely would not have mattered. Had they been trained to operate as a team and were armed with rifles, the outcome would, in all likelyhood been much differant.

For what it's worth Jerry Dove's brother operates a custom gun shop in WVA and is a heck of a nice guy.

O


Too old to suffer fools
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,473
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,473
Food for thought.

I remember when this took place a couple of years ago.
One reason the prosecutors went after the shooter was because he used a 10mm.

And this is from a very pro-gun state Arizona.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/05/16/20090516hikershooter0516.html

Hiker who shot man says he'd do it again
Case altered self-defense law; 5 years later, he awaits appeal

by Peter Corbett - May. 16, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

The prosecution of Harold Fish for second-degree murder led to a change in Arizona's self-defense law, but the change came too late to keep the former Tolleson teacher out of prison.

Fish, 62, is serving a 10-year sentence for killing a man on a hiking trail north of Payson five years ago this week.

Fish fatally shot Grant Kuenzli, 43, saying the man and his dogs charged at him on a trail in the Coconino National Forest.

"The choice was this: Use the firearm or let (Kuenzli) kill me or seriously hurt me," Fish said in a recent telephone interview from the Arizona State Prison Complex- Lewis near Buckeye. "I would do the same thing again today because I didn't have any choice. That gun saved my life."

A Coconino County investigator believed that Fish acted in self-defense based on Fish's statements and limited evidence at the scene. Prosecutors saw it differently and charged him with second-degree murder.

Fish was convicted in June 2006. He must serve until June 2016 unless the conviction is overturned. The Arizona Court of Appeals reviewed Fish's appeal last July but has not ruled on it yet.

Fish's case sparked debate about self-defense, drawing national attention from gun-rights advocates. The National Rifle Association contributed to Fish's defense.

Unconvinced jurors

During the trial, jurors were not convinced that Fish was justified in shooting Kuenzli to protect himself. At the time of the shooting, Arizona's self-defense law required that a person claiming self-defense must prove that his or her actions were reasonable and justified.

The law was changed in 2006 just before Fish's trial. It now puts the burden of proof on prosecutors to prove that shooters were not justified in using deadly force to protect themselves.

Fish's attorney, Melvin McDonald, lobbied for that change in the Arizona Legislature before Fish's case went to trial.

Then-Gov. Janet Napolitano vetoed two bills that would have made the change in the self-defense law retroactive to his case.

'Classic' self-defense

"The state finally got it right, but they didn't give it to me," Fish said. "It is a bitter, cruel irony."

NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said Wednesday that the shooting "was a classic case of a good person acting in self-defense."

The group is holding its national convention Friday through Sunday in Phoenix.

Arulanandam said the prosecutor manipulated the legal system to exclude "the mental history of the attacker (Kuenzli)."

Hike ends in tragedy

Fish, a father of seven who taught English and Spanish at Tolleson High School for 27 years, was completing a daylong hike along a forested trail north of Strawberry on May 11, 2004, when he fired the fatal shots from a Kimber 10mm handgun that he was legally carrying.

Kuenzli, unemployed and living out of his car, was camped at the trailhead with three dogs.

Fish said he saw Kuenzli's car and was relieved that his 10-mile hike was nearly over. Just then, Kuenzli's dogs charged down the hill, barking and snarling at him.

Single warning shot

Fish said he yelled to Kuenzli to call off his dogs. He fired a warning shot into the ground.

The dogs veered off the trail, Fish said. Suddenly, Fish said, Kuenzli charged down the hill, swinging his fists and threatening to kill him.

Fish dropped Kuenzli with three shots to his chest. Kuenzli fell dead in the dirt at Fish's feet.

Members of the grand jury later asked Fish why he had fired a warning shot at the dogs but did not do the same for Kuenzli.

Fish said he did not have time and had been trained not to fire warning shots.

Victim's past at issue

Kuenzli was unarmed, but the defense argued that a screwdriver in his pocket could have been used as a weapon.

Judge Mark Moran of Coconino County Superior Court did not allow that evidence into the trial. The issue is part of Fish's appeal.

McDonald also tried to introduce evidence about Kuenzli's mental-health problems, a domestic-violence incident and previous heated encounters Kuenzli had had with police, court officials and strangers.

Moran excluded testimony about any prior confrontations. The legal theory was that Fish did not know of Kuenzli's mental stability when they squared off, so it was irrelevant.

"Baloney!" Fish said. "If you look in the eyes of a man who wants to kill, you know he's not right. I'll never forget those eyes. This guy was as nutty as anyone I've ever seen."

McDonald said he hopes the Arizona Court of Appeals will overturn Fish's conviction and set him free so he can return to his wife and family.

Family is still hopeful

For three years, Debora Fish has been raising their seven children, ages 5 to 20, without her husband. She supports the family with his retirement income and her paycheck from a nursing home.

"We're keeping our heads above water," she said, adding that the family is eager for a ruling that would overturn the conviction and free her husband without another expensive trial.

Flagstaff attorneys John Trebon and Lee Phillips filed an appeal for Fish in April 2008.

Coconino County prosecutor Michael Lessler said he is awaiting the appellate court's decision, but he declined to speculate about the outcome.

After the trial verdict nearly three years ago, Lessler said of the shooting that Fish "engaged in conduct that the law just can't accept."

Kuenzli's sister, Linda Almeter, said Fish was unhurt in the deadly encounter and did nothing to substantiate his self-defense claim.

"He didn't have a button missing from his shirt," she said.

"I think justice put him where he is, and he needs to stay there," she said.

'God and I are OK'

Fish, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said he has had a lot of time to reflect about what happened five years ago.

"God and I are OK with this," Fish said of the shooting.

Did he pray for Kuenzli?

"I wish I could say I did," Fish said, adding that it would be hypocritical for him to do that.

As prisoner No. 208513, Fish spends his time reading and watching TV. His family visits every week.

"It's not a happy place," he said of prison. "It's not meant to be an experience you want to repeat."

'Innocent citizen'

Fish will be 69 years old when he is released unless Trebon and Phillips succeed in getting his conviction overturned sooner.

People empathize with Fish because he went to prison for defending himself, Trebon said.

"Here's an ordinary, innocent citizen in a life-and-death situation," the attorney said.

"He makes the most reasonable decision under the circumstances and then is second-guessed by people who didn't have to live through that situation."


Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218
O
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
O
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,218
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
The problem is that they brought handguns to a long gun fight.


In a nutshell, that's pretty much it. Lack of training and lack of itel...not being armed with a 500 S&W... was the reason for this disaster.

O


Too old to suffer fools
IC B3

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,557
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,557
Our local LEOs learned from the North Hollywood Shootout the failure of bringing pistols & shotguns to a rifle fight. Today, they all have a rifle in the trunk for emergencies. The LEO at the school where I work has an AR15 in the trunk of his vehicle.

Quote
Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with 9 mm or .38 Special pistols on their person, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried fully automatic rifles, with ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor, and wore military grade body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' efforts were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with weapons that could penetrate and several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer.


That local dealer was B&B Gun Sales. A great shop that is now gone.

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Unfortunately, if you don't want to be coinvicted on some sort of murder charge, you pretty much have to be able to prove you had grounds to use deadly force. I've seen convictions here in liberal Kalifornia that were better cases that that one. Juries tend to ignore the resonable doubt law on the subject and the probable cause definations. We, BTW, have no legal requirement that the shooter must prove his innocence.
Joe Average Citizen simply gets too upset when anybody kills another. He insists on proof of the need to use deadly force. Cops, BTW, are usually held to an even higher standard than average citizens. It's too bad, really. Big Guys often play this angle quite well. E

Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

281 members (1Longbow, 160user, 01Foreman400, 10Glocks, 12344mag, 1badf350, 29 invisible), 1,872 guests, and 940 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,193,654
Posts18,512,764
Members74,010
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.136s Queries: 39 (0.015s) Memory: 0.8756 MB (Peak: 0.9704 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-15 11:03:13 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS