Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Do You Muzzleload?

Cap, been following this,uh, discussion for a few days and due to fate have come to possess a used muzzle loader and for the life of me can't figure if it would be considered and inline or what. It's fair old, or at least parts of it are. Dang thing can't be breech loaded 'cause it's got a .400 groove and uses a .38-55, uh....pellet? Well, it's a case that holds BP, not the -kaff- newer subs. It doesn't use 209 primers if that helps.

You'll note it doesn't have any sights. Maybe I could wrap some duct tape around the FM and use that little bobbin on the top as a post sight? Just wondering where I stand here and who I'm rootin' fer. The plastic/SS pellet users or the old school. By the way, that Pope fellow had some guns run in the old NRC days and maybe this'n would work better then or there?



BTW, I have a neighbor that builds some boats sorta like yours.



Aw heck, that's the airplane guy, sorry!

Here, this is it...



Whatcha think about all this here stuff?

I hear that's fairly common with cross-dressers......

Good morning Dan .
nice Kyaks . is the plan a cub or a tyler craft ?

I would suggest a receiver mounted Creedmoor type sight myself .
IMO your rifle begs for one .
is that a mettel post sticking up from the wrist ? if so thats probably where the rear peep sight is ment to set .

Also here , we have a min . caliber requirement. That says 45 cal or bigger for deer and antelope . 50 cal or bigger for elk and moose

Now this is just my opinion. But if the ignition channel is inline with the bore . IE the powder is ignited from the back of the powder , as well as having the actual action inline with the bore . Then its an inline system .

If I gather from your description correctly . Your loading the bullet from the muzzle . But charging from the breech . Here that would be a breech loaders . Also because the powder is loaded into the rifle in a casing then it would be a cartridge gun .

Now a note on this though .
Many folks don�t realize it but some falling blocks can be loaded this way .
A friend of mine a couple towns over has a paper cartridge sharps and I have watched him load it 3 different ways
A ) with paper cartridges
B) by using a measured loading rod that only allows the bullet to be set a give distance from the muzzle . Then he loads lose powder from the breech .
C) using what he calls a charging block . This is kinda like a short starter but its used from the breech end to set the bullet . Then he loads powder and closes the action

Back in 2006 we took it to the enforcement division of the IDF&G for clarification
. See it can be loaded from the muzzle , without opening the breech . The cap is exposed and it is a side lock .

But the rules say capable of ONLY being loaded from the muzzle� so we got beat up on that .
They also stated that in their opinion because the powder was loaded from the breech , they would classify it as then a breech loader regardless of the bullet being loaded from the muzzle .
So we got a no go all the way around .

Back to your piece .
Without looking at it and judging from what you say and the one photo , I would say that what you have maybe based on either one of the Pauly or Berenger designs from 1814-1834
It should be noted that Pauly was way , WAY ahead of his time . He also had a system to ignite the charge from compressed air
See during the 19th century , cartridge evolution really took of with the advent of the percussion cap . Case in point . The shotgun shell used today . Has changed very little from those in the late 1830 . In fact its changed little from Pottet�s patent of 1829
But we are talking rifles aren�t we . Some of these early cartridge designs still required a projectile to be loaded eather from the muzzle or from the breech . The cartridge only held the powder and primer . Some of the cartridges of the later 1850-1860 while being a complete system , still used the #11 cap as a primer in that they had a nipple set to the case . Some like the Berebger , had the nipple set to the side . Others like the Coffer system , had the nipple placed at the base in the same place we would seat a primer today .
still others set the primer right to the case . thus what many folks think to be a nipple off the side of the case , is really just a way to remove the case from the chamber . exstractors had yet to be come up with .

The pin fire system also dates to around 1827 and infact was adopted by the Prussia army by 1842.
what did that ignition system look like?
notice any resembolance to todays bolt action designs


all this is one of the reasons why the cap lock system lst favor so quickly . there was just so many people needing one last piece of the puzzle . once that piece was found . things just exsploded

Anyway the evolution of firearms is really something to be amazed at . I don�t claim to know it all . For that mater even a fraction of it .

if folks would like i could scan a photo showing the early Pauly and Berebger cartradges .

Cap, that's an interesting post on your part, didn't know much?/any of that.

Tyler Craft as I recall. He's rebuilding an old Indy Boat Tail Racer too, complete with the Model T 4-banger.

That little stud on the wrist is for the "breech seater" and I use the term loosely. Fella I picked it up from didn't know giddy-up from sic'im about the gun so I'm reverse engineering in my mind on the piece. Due to the incongruity of bullet diameter (.400) and case (.390)on the seater that tool cannot work in a conventional manner. My best guess is the bullet is seated "deep" and final position is done with the seater from behind. It occurs that a range rod with a properly positioned stop would obviate the need for the seater and make room for that Creedmore sight. That's an old thick side High Wall there on my "in-line". Well, it's got a little panache even if it is an in-line/cartridge gun. I think Pope called them a "muzzle loading/breech cartridge gun" or something like that.

Nice muzzle/breech loader Dan. Who built it? How does it shoot? I would sell my soul for an original Pope system, preferably .32/40 on a High Wall or Ballard.

Just purchased it a week ago and am still looking for a Unertl to park on the roof. Or a Fecker...something like that. Was built by BW Darr in '75 and has been shot very little, none at all for the last 31 years. Pure chance I found it, stopped by a gun show I rarely visit and found the third owner there with it on the table. Looking forward to some range time with it myself. Folks down at the range aren't ready for this one, guaranteed! I do so thoroughly enjoy embarrassing gas guns and this one will do that with ease. Spoke with Mr. Darr about an hour ago and "If you're up to it that one will print bugholes with 10 shots."

Gawd, I love muzzle loaders!

ok so here is a question for you all .
breechloader ?
muzzleloader ?
are they inlines or sidelocks ?

care to make a guess on the dates

Samuel Evens







Jover of Londen






[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/_10CUJoverLondon.jpg[/img]

Blaisdell
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/09-14-09-05Blaisdell.jpg[/img]

or how about these two more famous ones.
do you know why they were famous ?
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/Lukens-DNH-full550jpg.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/lewisandclarkairgunGirandoni.jpg[/img]

Don't know the particulars of fame, but "air rifles", muzzle loaders, side locks, older than me. How am I doin' so far?

Saw a picture of the last recently but forget the particulars. The stock is the air reservoir.

No sh**?? Air rifles? I was wondering what the reservoirs were.

If they're air rifles, then why the external hammer?

Is that sort of like the "bolt actions" on Remington muzzleloaders--useless as teats on a boar but designed to look familiar (to bring it full cirlce)?

yep all are air rifles . pre 1812 as i recall
on some the hammers work the valves and gates . on others just the gates . yet others only the valves

the bottom 2 are a couple of the 3 that L&C hard with them . the air tanks are in the butt stocks . the others have ball tanks .

and yes they were used for hunting and for war .
Some even had magazines which would hold multiple projectiles as such they were capable of firing repeatable times without stopping to reload . As I recall the bottom one is such a gun . It could shoot 20 times on one tank and fired a 51 cal ball at over 750fps

the top one , i have writen down as a 72 cal

Cap, I read once, somewhere, that there was a time when such weapons used steam from a similar reservoir (the globes) that was drawn from a fire then attached to the weapon. Ever hear of that? Recollection was the guns favored a high rate of fire as well, but I'm not certain of that. I think they were used by European naval forces aboard ships.

have not heard of that one
as i said before Pauly had a system which used compressed air air to ignight the powder .
but steam is a new one on me

Seems like would've been hard to re-charge in the field, how'd they do that?

I am partial to sidelocks and use to sort of resent the inlines and all of the hoopla in the press talking about how far they would shoot leading to the uninitiated taking unsportsman like shots in my opinion. While I still consider any ML a short range weapon the ability to scope a rifle has developed new meaning as I have aged and the inline does this well. I have always said and advised others that given only one deer rifle I would take a good ML as it can be used in both the special and regular gun season. I actually prefer the ML season as it is normally earlier when the weather is more pleasant, and where I hunt east of the Mississippi 100-125yds is plenty so I really don't fee; the ML has much disadvantage.

well basically concerning air rifles .
for the public , it was a hand pump sort of affair smoke pole .
Some screwed into say a tree or post and then you un screwed the buttstock and screwed it into a the pump and went at it .
Others had pumps resembling a basketball pump.
But for the military , I have read where they had pumping wagons .
Basically as the wagon rolled along it would pump compressed air into a tank . Then from their the rifles were refilled .
I think these were just special units outfitted with these rifles. Probably something more like Ferguson did with his breechloader design .though I could be wrong .

now i question if you all will .
i have to ask . those of you that have hunted artcher and can no longer draw the bow , what do you do ?

Old Archer = Vegetarian or snare master...

Steam: http://www.2ndmdinfantryus.org/winans.html

http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/perkgun/index.html

The links above relate to Civil War artillery concepts but I was thinking in terms of ship board man portable weapons...can't find anything on that.

Id' have nothing against inlines if they stick to using blackpowder and iron sights. Then they are just ugly, but not overly advantageous. But put a 50mm scope on them and suddenly I hear shooting every evening of late season muzzleloading, well after legal hours.

Stay home of course. What is so hard about that? I can't dunk a basketball but I don't expect the city parks to install springboards on all the park ball courts. I don't want to see elevators to the bottom of the Grand Canyon for those that didn't/couldn't make the trip when they were able, and I don't want to see roads in every wilderness area for everyone that can't walk. Just the way it is.

very cool dan . thanks for the info

brent , i was just asking . thanks for clearing it up for me LOL

I remember as a teen in the 70's, drooling over gun catalogs. One was the Marlin catalog. I longed for a big bore lever action, and the other was a T/C catalog. I had friends that shot black powder rifle matches at a local club, and I WANTED ONE!! My father helped me buy a T/C Hawken in 1978, and I used it to shoot matches for many years. I was bitten hard by the black powder bug at an early age. I was winning matches and very much enjoyed that .45 caliber Hawken.

When I got a look at my first T/C Renegade, I was hooked. I liked the blued iron much better than the bright brass on the Hawkins, and set out to find a way to get one. Soon after, the fairer sex began to get all of my attention, and money, and the Renegades took a back seat. Well, the years passed. Wives, kids, cars, houses, etc, etc, etc, still prevented me from spending money on the much dreamed about Renegade.

Fast forward 35 years. My wife, (I LOVE that woman!), puts up with my love of hunting and shooting, so when I saw a .54 caliber percussion Renegade with a beautiful piece of wood for sale on Gunbroker, she said, "Go for it!", and I did. Soon the long awaited Renegade was in my hands. Due to the earlier purchase of a .58 caliber Pedersoli Kodiak double rifle, I had all of the loading and shooting accessories for .58 caliber on hand, and nothing for a .54, so I ordered a .58 caliber Green Mountain barrel for the rengade. I was already fond of the .58 caliber, but the Renegade / Green Mountain combo drove it home. Ragged one hole groups at 50 yards were easy with the perfectly balanced 32" barrel, and that sealed the deal.

A few months later, while looking around on Gunbroker (a bad idea!), I happened upon a .50 caliber Renegade flintlock in like new condition. A quick conference with my wife had my bid posted, and the beautiful rifle on it's way home. In order to cintinue my love affair with the big .58, I searched for a .58 caliber Green Mountain flintlock barrel, only to discover that there was no such thing. During the process of searching for a barrel, I talked to Troy at Stonewall Creek Outfitters who delivered the bad news about the GM barrel, and mentioned that he had a Rice .58 caliber blank that he could fit to my new flinter. JACKPOT!

A couple months later, my .58 Renegade flintlock arrived, and I'm happy to say that it shoots as good as the percussion rifle. They are the perfect pair. Same barrel length, same powder charge, same patch, and same ball in both rifles. Both shoot better than I do.

In 40 years of shooting, I can honestly say that I have never had as much fun as I've had with those two Renegades. I LOVE the look and the sounds of the big boomers in the still, early morning hours on the range. The big gray "fingers" reaching out for the target as the smoke just lingers in slow motion in the air, wafting that great pure black smell towards the firing line. They always garner attention from others on the line as the "BOOM" fades away. I have introduced new shooters to muzzleloading, started by conversation struck up about the noise and smoke from the big .58's.

I can't think of anything more relaxing in this "rush, rush, rush" world than spending the day at the range burning up some Goex. It totally relaxes and revitalizes me.

I will take this opportunity to thank my wife for putting up with me and telling me, "Go shooting. You're starting to piss me off!". I LOVE that woman. She also fulfilled the other dream of a big bore lever action. For our anniversary a few years ago, she bought me a Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70 caliber. There is no better rifle for hog hunting, my other passion, in the thick Florida plametto scrub, and it has proven itself many times. Sometimes dreams do come true, even if it takes 35 years to happen! Life is GOOD!

By the way, I also have a scoped T/C Omega that I use for most of my muzzleloading hunting. I have walked thru the woods in pouring rain all day, and had no ignition problems. Inlines have their place. I load the Omega with Goex - I don't like the BP substitutes - they are just too hard to clean up. But for pure fun and relaxation, I'll take the flintlock every time!