Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Do You Muzzleload?

Hello,

I was wanting to post a poll with this, but don't see a way to do so, so I'm just asking outright: Why do you muzzleload?

Some do it just to extend deer season. Others really get into the old designs, and even reenacting.

Myself, I got the trading itch last summer, and after some swapping around, ended up with a CVA Bobcat (sidelock with a black synthetic stock), caps, ball, and powder.

I ended up with two more sidelocks in short order, first a Kentucky Rifle replica and then a T/C New Englander.

I then taught a kid I know to shoot muzzleloaders, and he now has the Bobcat.

Got to making my own patches, made my own powder horn, and started casting my own balls.

In short order, I was quite addicted to the sidelocks shooting patched round balls, and on my best day I can plunk two of three balls through the same hole at 50 yards with open sights. The third ball only slightly elongates the hole.

Additionally, I very much appreciate the power of the round ball. Its aerodynamics suck, and for this reason it's one of the better projectiles for terminal ballistics.

Though the round ball has killed at over 500 yards in war time (especially in the hands of rifle units and sharpshooters -- I believe the record was 800 yards), for hunting, I believe 100 to 150 yards is the limit for the round ball from a rifle one knows well.

I grew up shooting slug guns, so I do not perceive this as any sort of handicap. I'm used to what rifle shooters would refer to as "close range."

On the other hand, many of my beloved, affordable sidelocks are disappearing in deference to inlines. While I have nothing against inline shooters, those rifles do not appeal to me. The proliferation of these rifles, too, tells me that more folks are buying the for hunting than for general shooting.

So, do you prefer modern muzzleloader designs, or sidelocks? Why?

Thanks,

Josh

Wow... answers to this question cover a LOT of "ground"... but here goes...

First, a friend let me shoot his percussion cap Hawken... and showed me how to load it. He got me "hooked" with the fun of shooting black powder, the wonderful aroma of burnt black powder, the allure of shooting part of history (the round, patched ball in a side-lock, black powder rifle) and the pure ENJOYMENT of holding a "piece-of-history" in my hands and shooting it.

Following that "romantic aspect" of shooting BP, I bought a commercially-made flintlock Pennsylvania Long Rifle... and learned some lessons in all the different ways a flintlock will fail to fire. Once I learned all those reasons "why"... I bought my first side-lock (percussion cap) rifle in a used, standard CVA Hawken in the same caliber (.50 caliber) as my Long Rifle.

Owning and shooting the commercially-made Pennsylvania Long Rifle made me "appreciate" the beautiful custom-made Long Rifles I saw in Friendship (Indiana) with their full "tiger" maple stocks and browned barrels, beautiful, shiny brass butt-plates and muzzle caps, trigger guards and handsome inlays... rifles I'd love to own, but can't really afford to buy... and don't have the workplace, tools, talent and expertise to build for myself.

I was surprised when I began shooting the Hawken... it SEEMED so much more simple to use and shoot. While both rifles were "accurate"... the Hawken seemed MORE accurate... or at least EASIER to shoot, to clean... and to handle since it was shorter.

Then I found and bought a percussion cap Hawken CARBINE... 6� pounds of .50 caliber rifle with a short 26" barrel which I felt would be very handy in the woods to use for hunting whitetails.

And so, now... I have three (3) "traditional" .50 caliber muzzle-loaders with double-set triggers in all three rifles.

Admittedly, I felt using a muzzleloading, black powder rifle would extend my deer hunting season plus here in Ohio, we can't use center-fire rifles, but can use muzzle-loading, black powder rifles (traditional and in-line) in place of shotguns or handguns for deer hunting.

But even if that wasn't so... I'd still find it fun & interesting in owning and shooting black powder, muzzle-loading, traditional sidelock rifles, but while my two sons use in-lines, I'm not at all interested in owning or shooting in-lines. In-lines just don't seem "traditional" and it's the "traditional" part of these muzzleloaders that interest me.

Another factor in enjoying these rifles is the low cost of shooting due to the fact you just can't shoot these rifles very fast!!! A long, pleasant afternoon of shooting might end up costing $5.00 or so... not a "big deal" even for a retired guy and his wife like us who are living on a lower, more limited income than when I was working.

What you younger fellas don't realize (and I didn't either when I was your age) is that 'most EVERY week has 6 "Saturdays" followed by a Sunday day-of-rest!!!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I like the extended season, the accuracy/killing power over standard rifled slugs (not the new stuff, though), the look and feel of wood and steel, the ergonomics of a rifle designed for and by, humans. Most of all, I like to be Dan'l Boone, bringin' home some supper.

"Armed recon" for two weeks prior to firearms season, and often right in the early stages of pre-rut; great time to get a look/shot at a good buck.

Great chance to fill the freezer with a couple does before the season gets going and they start shifting patterns.

Great transition from bow season to rifle season.

It's fun.

There's NOTHING like the smell of pure black burnt on a cool morning, and that flat, rolling "BOOOOOMM" that accompanies it.

Because it is a hell of a lot more fun. Modern cartridge rifles simply are not challenging.

A little history goes a long ways too.

Personally, I have no use for the modern inline, but not all "traditional" muzzleloaders are sidelocks. Indeed, the single most American style of rifle might well be the underhammer percussion rifle. About as mechanically simple as a folding pocket knife and just are reliable.

I muzzleload for more hunting time. I go both modern smokeless and blackpowder sidelock (caps) and enjoy them both.

its basically 14 days more hunting time for me.

More time to hunt. I do think they are fun to fool with, cheap to buy, and cheap to shoot.

Josh,

I bought my first ML rifle in '93 to go on mule deer hunting in Utah during a special late season, and that is why I continue to use them. They do have their own charm though. I use both an inline .50 and a handmade reproduction .451 English Sporting Rifle.

jim

I started fooling with them 40 years ago with an el-cheapo full stock percussion gun in .45. Made all the mistakes you can think of because I had no one to teach me, but learn I did. I've done Civil War re-enacting (with original muskets- no repros back then) and more recently Revolutionary War (as a Highlander). Artillery both times too. The underlying interest of hunting and target shooting with MLs saw me through a plethora of "civilian" arms that whole time. No re-enacting now (not many 58 year old enlisted guys back then, although I do a staff officer impression from time to time).

Here in Eastern Maryland it's shotgun only or ML for deer, so when I hunt around here it's ML, no shotgun deer hunting for me. And I use a traditional gun too, of course. My interests are pretty varied as far as guns in general are concerned but ML shooting/hunting is still a constant.

Years ago when special ML seasons were set up I took the spirit of the reason for them to heart, and still do. They were intended to give ML guys a chance to deer hunt without being crowded by all of the "civilians" during the regular season- much the same reason why there is an archery season too. Now, the DNR views the ML season as just another tool for deer herd management which prompted them to ok the use of inlines. Now the woods are full of guys, mostly toting inlines, shooting the hell out of stuff and the ambience of doing it the "old way" is gone. I guess that is what lies at the heart of my dislike for inlines. That and the fact that a lot of them are way more powerful than a .30/30 but are legal around here for deer, but the .30/30 isn't. Doesn't make sense. Small wonder that I go further afield where rifles are legal.

The fun of actually hunting.
A friend and I chased a nice WT buck last January with our flintlocks. We never got a shot and hardly got a glimpse of the old boy. He spent most days in a cedar patch surrounded by sandhills. I could have sneaked up a nearby hill with my 7mm Mag and spotting scope and waited for him to give me a shot - probably could have killed him that way. But, I would have cheated my buddy and me out of a lot of fun planning sneaks and strategy. None of our planning worked but I came close enough that I heard him move around and I could actually hear him take a leak and could smell the urine. I would rather have the memories of trying to outwit that deer than a few pictures and some venison.
Just my thoughts and worth exactly what you paid for them.


Johnny $

Here in CO,it gives me two elk seasons for areas where two tags are available.So I draw for ML seaosn cow and then do an OTC later.
I have never felt underguned,nor distance limited with a ML. Very seldom have I ever needed two shots on an elk.

The weather is niceer, better for these old bones,but there is more of a chance of rain.I'd rather hunt in snow than rain,and I don't go out if it is raining.
Big problem is at that time of year,early Sept, there is a lot more daylight left at the end of me.

Its puts me back in time ,also there were not many hunter in the 60 -70 muzzleloaders ,mostley tiral an error back then. Now I just listen to what all seams to think know an smile a little

gnoahhh, you could have written my reply, almost, including the age.

I started shooting muzzleloaders 36 years ago, as with gnoahh, with a cheap Kentucky cap lock in 45 cal. I'd bet we made all the same mistakes and for the same reason, no mentor. But learn we did, and learn well. I hunted with them from the beginning. The love of squirrel hunting led to a 36 cal. TC Seneca that was soon traded for a Southern Mountain flintlock. I still hunt squirrels with a 36 cal, Southern Mountain flintlock but not the same one. As things got better for us so did the quality of my rifles.

I did the Mountain Man thing for near 30 years then about 7 years ago got into the Long Hunter scene and that evolved into reenacting my home area, Missouri Ozarks, from about 1800. Along with a couple like minded friends we do a half dozen seminars/demonstrations every year for various groups of kids from elementary school age through high school.

I shoot rifles and smoothbores from the pre-Revolution period to the end of the rondesvous period, all but two are flintlocks.

Used to be muzzleloading season was a wonderful time to be in the woods. You knew anyone you ran into was going to be of a similar ken. The woods were quiet, deer largely undisturbed, the occasional flat boom of another muzzleloader far away was almost pleasant and you hoped another hunter such as yourself put his round ball in the right spot. Lots of guys set up primitive camps and hunters really tried to emulate our forebears and actually learn, as much as is possible, how things were "back in the day". As gnoahhh said, the spirit of muzzleloading seasons as established. As with many things I guess those times are gone for good. These days there isn't much difference between muzzleloading season and regular rifle season. If you set up a primitive camp on public ground the ambiance of the old days is soon lost unless you get "way back in there". Even then a camo clad hunter toting a scoped in-line, range finder, cover scents and a half dozen other high-tech toys will clomp into your camp, (making enough noise to raise the dead), and proceed to tell you how much better his $99.00 plastic in-line is than your custom made $1500.00 American longrifle, that there's no way you can kill a deer with that rifle, dressed in those clothes, how miserable your camp is and how he's covered "at least 15 miles", since sun-up and there ain't no deer around. Sure ain't none around him.

for me its the added challange , knowlage and history .. i also find i enjoy the slower pace

here it doesnt give you more hunting time as we only get 1 tag .
so really if one was hunting to fill the freezer . you could be completely don by the first week in September
also if your note smart about what you apply for , you may actualy find yourself with only a few days over months

My first ML was a T/C kit gun in .50. The early kits had barrels in the white that had to be filed smooth and browned. We cast out own maxi-balls and shot 3-F black Goex in them.

They were cheap to shoot. Conddidering the lack of shotgun slug
accuracy at the time the sidelocks from T/C were like sharps rifles even at 50 yards.


I still have the kit rifle but don't shoot it much anymore, I still lift in off the deer foot gun rack it sits in and look down the sights and recall the hunts it has scored on.

Doc

Well said

I swore I'd never ML but, after I shot one, I realized how fun they were to shoot so I thought I'd give it a try.

That being said, I personally wouldn't mess with one if it weren't for the month long December statewide ML season here in NE. It get's pretty nippy here in December and I have a hard time putting in the time I like to when bowhunting so ML is really the next best thing IMO.

Setting up in your bow stands makes you realize what an advancement the firearm was! Slam dunk!

'cuz they're so much FUN!!! I even carry one of my flinters frequently during regular BG season when we can use nearly anything that goes "BANG"!

Hmmmmmmmmm...

It seems as if we have a fine gathering of "poets" in this forum.

Your words and deeds... and your love of a quiet woods and traditional muzzle-loading rifles sparks a great desire in the hearts of those of us who have read your words.

There's a true kinship in the kindred spirit shared by us all who truly love the aroma of black powder smoke and the feel of the thrust of a good ramrod as it seats a round, patched ball down on black powder.

I thank each of you fine gentlemen for your vivid descriptions of those things we all hold so dear and covet so much...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I hunt with traditional caplock rifles, mostly in .54 caliber for deer. I also use black powder and patched round balls. I'm not interested in an inline muzzleloader of any sort. That is just my personal preference. I really enjoy using the type of equipment I've chosen.

I think it can be summed up very simply: Traditional shooters wax poetic as they lovingly caress their muzzle loaders. Have you ever seen a guy act like that with a plastic and stainless steel inline? They are cold, efficient tools- no more no less, and evoke nothing in regards to our heritage.

(That probably also explains why I like pre-war Savage 99's and Mauser sporters over plastic and stainless modern whiz-bangs, L.C.Smith doubles over plastic stocked autoloaders, and pre-war Colt revolvers over Glocks and SIGs. One of a dying breed I suppose.)

Josh -

Here in Oregon, we are only allowed one buck tag per hunter per year, so the choice of rifle / ML / bow is mutually exclusive of the others. ML is by drawing only, only a few units issue ML tags. I can get a ML deer tag about every 3rd year, otherwise I hunt the regular rifle season.

I shoot a sidelock, a TC .58 Renegade from their custom shop.

We can shoot our ML in regular rifle season if we wish. Oregon's regs for ML-only seasons remove any advantage an inline has over a side-lock. No optics, no 209 primers, no powder pellets, no sabots, etc. Those are allowed on MLs used during regular rifle season, however.

I hunt with a ML mostly for the later season. Growing up I was not near a unit that had late tags. This late ML season allows me to hunt in the snow, something I could never legally do. I really like it ... tracks in the snow and all that jazz. I also like the "vibe" of the sidelocks ... exposed hammers, etc. The particular area I focus on is hunted very little. Its pretty inhospitable in the snow ... you could die up there pretty easy. I like the elbow room.

Tom

'Cause it's hard to breech load a flint lock rifle. Probably answers the last question I guess.

There was a poll done awhile back, disremember who did it, but the result was that 92.4% of people using inlines were too busy to invest the time it takes to be effective with a rock lock....might have been 94.2% now that I think about it, not real sure now.

Yes mine was a Kentucky CVA 45 cal ,Then a 50,an 54 CVA hawksen.Then about 20 or so thompsons an CVA then a pennyslavana I like that long one Then a few more thompsons the latest a 58 cal can't wait to shoot her

Colorado Cow tags $350. That's why

I've dabbled with TC Hawken replicas a couple of times, but never have seriously tried to bag anything with one. I know where there is a reasonably priced .54 cal Lyman Great Plains rifle, which is a fairly authentic copy of the Hawken style rifles.

Getting one of them to shoot is a bit of a challenge, a bit of craft involved, so that's fun. I do like the idea of trying to bust a wild turkey with one; one of my cousins did so years ago and had relatively little meat lost. Come to think of it - spring turkey season is coming up...

And edit to add - the Hawken to me is a symbolic tool of the mountain men who first settled the West, and the mystique of their lives is still interesting. They endured great hardships, and saw much unspoiled beauty as well.

Why? . . . Cuz.

I have shot only traditional sidelock MLs (cap and flint) since I started shooting MLs. Nothing specifically against the new synthetic in-lines, I just like the trads. I prefered recurves and longbows to wheel bows when I was doing archery, too. I wasn't lured to muzzleloaders because of extended hunting seasons, but by the history and "mystique" of shooting the older style rifles. Plus, there is nothing like the smell of spent black powder along with my coffee in the morning.

And they're nicer to look at than something with plastic.

So, what is a pre-'64 Winchester model 70 passed down from your grandfather?

A "cold, efficient tool- no more no less, (that) evoke(s) nothing in regards to our heritage?

Nah, for me it's because I'm too busy to invest the time it takes to be effective with a longbow, now there's a man's weapon.

'cause elk in December is just right

I enjoy the history, tradition, and challenge. When I started (1982) we didn't have a special season. The muzzle-loading rifle was just another option to use during the general season. There wasn't much information available at the time. I learned what I could from the Lyman black powder book and Walter Cline's book "The Muzzle-loading Rifle".

My attraction to it has always leaned towards the history of the Rocky Mountain fur trade and the Hawkins style rifles. I shoot 50 caliber rifles loaded with Goex black powder and patched round ball. I have a CVA mountain rifle and a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I shoot in monthly club matches and I still enjoy killing a deer with the muzzle-loader.

I have zero interest in non-traditional muzzle-loaders. I have no interest in extending my deer hunting season, it's lengthy enough here. I wouldn't consider giving up my modern scoped center-fire rifles either.

The traditional muzzle-loading rifles add an interesting aspect and a different style to my hunting season. It's just fun!

Huh? I don't remember pre-64 M70's being made in plastic and stainless steel. (Or am I missing something?) Apples and oranges I fear. (By the way I do hold old 70's in high nostalgic regard, in the world of bolt guns. But that's not the topic of discussion here.) (Gramps never owned a rifle except a Savage .22 Model 6, and a Winchester 67. Both used for putting injured animals out of their misery. He was quite the pacifist.)

i was brought up shooting black powder pistols and rifles from early age and just always loved it.So for the awnser maybe it is my blood sorta like diesel for driving truck for long time


I would say it is sorta like handloading is to the rifleman you can find the accuracy for the rifle.Just the same as we do with bp guns you work up loads and not to mention who don't get excited when you see the flame and smoke even people that don't care for guns are impressed when the see the bp go off at night

Mesabi...nice toys, congrats! I especially like that Ohio Vincent looking rifle. Just had a conversation about that very rifle with another board member.

The top rifle....gotta be English or a copy thereof, no? Nice piece!

Vic

Well, that's a damn good answer. I like traditional rifles too, and walnut/blued in centerfires. But when I go hunting I'll usually reach for the best tool for the job. For me it's an in-line because I pack in a few miles on foot and weight matters. With centerfires it's normally a synthetic (not plastic) stock for the same reason.

I use a muzzleloader to hunt the early seasons. In Colorado, that means September, during the elk rut. There's no better time to be in the mountains.

A hunter walks into a bar . Sets down so he can see his truck through the window .
Sitting behind him to fella�s are talking politics
Finally he gets pissed and turns are ; why don�t you liberals just go pound sand !

One of them replies ; we aren�t liberals we are progressives .! To which the hunter replies , potato , patotoooo.

The other liberal then say . Say isn�t that a plastic stock on your rifle right there in your truck
The hunter turns and say :NO!! its synthetic . To which the liberal says potato- patatooooo .

sorry smokepole , i just couldnt pass up the chance lol

Cap, there's a big difference in injection-molded plastic and a high-quality fiberglass stock, not only in weight but in stiffness, function, and how the rifle shoots. Plastic is, well plastic. It moves, bends, and binds on the barrel channel, in different places at different times. And you can't get epoxy to stick to it for bedding.

I have 8-10 rifles with synthetic stocks, and none of 'em are plastic.

So go peel some poh-tah-toes, fry 'em up in hog fat, and get back to me.

I like the look of wood and blued steel too. But that's aesthetics, and you know what they say about beauty.

I do get a kick out of traditional rifle shooters who think they're somehow superior to in-line shooters though. And that's not aimed at you Cap. You have some of the best-lookin' rifles around, but you manage to stay out of that trap.

Hmmm.... methinks he doth protosteth too much!

Like I have said countless times before, I personally don't much care what a man chooses to shoot. I'm merely pointing out that there's more, much more, to the science of firing a projectile that has been loaded from the muzzle than merely hitting a target. It's called art, or a sense of aesthetics if you will, coupled with an abiding respect for the past.

Now don't go getting your shorts all twisted up!

No, I think you're the one protesting. Or rather congratulating yourself on aesthetics, which are in the eye of the beholder. I'm just pointing out that there is much more involved with the "art" of firing a wooden arrow from a traditional bow than firing any of these new-fangled contraptions that use gunpowder, so as to lessen the jolt when you guys fall off your high horse.

I can't come up with words or reason that others haven't already said. I can only say that I purchased my T/C Hawkens back in 1986 and have shot 18+ (lost count) deer over the years.

A member on the campfire had a Hawkens for sale and purchased for a back-up. Now I have 2 of them. I named my first one Hawkeye and we have an understanding. When I aim at brown it hits the ground. Heck ! When the wife sees Hawkeye come out to play she knows enough to get the skillet ready.


Ken

hmm...all I've ever hunted with when it comes to archery is either a longbow, self bow or vintage recurve...and I bought the vintage recurves before they were vintage. Arrows have always been woodies and more often than not crafted by my son or me. Never have owned one of those cam actuated arrow launching devices...they cetainly can't be called a bow. But, this is about muzzleloaders.

It's all good...but there will never be a "synthetic", (plastic or not), stocked, scoped, stainless barreled modern in-line in my safe. I don't allow them to be used on our place during muzzleloading season either. Regular rifle season, sure. That's ruffled a few feathers over the years but that's the way it is. Old style or go home. I can't control the game dept., nor do I have any desire to, but I will control what's used on my land and will adhere to the original intent of muzzleloading season. Same goes for bows.

I love to use the sidehammers I'm currently having some accuricy issues with my t/c hawken 50 cal. but slowly finding things that improve the groups is part of the fun. There is almost no end of new things to try, balls or bullets, different powders, different charges, different lubs, if all else fails theres always a new barrel.
Have to dissagree with the post that said no challenge to shooting high power rifles. If one reloads the are as many new things to try as in m/loading. My 270wsm will pretty reliabley shoot sub moa groups at 100yds. The biggest challenge about that, at age 60 almost, checking to see if I can still shoot sub moa???
So far so good, wonder if I can still do that at 90, hope to get the chance to find out.
Now if I can just get the hawken to shoot 4-5in at 100 I'll be happy!!! Them of course I'll try for 2-3in at 100..........

"The original intent of muzzleloading season??"

And what would that be?

270, what are you shooting, as far as projectiles?

I always had good luck with Hornady Great Plains Bullets and 80-90 grains of Pyrodex in my Hawken.

250gr real bullet see my post, m/l section, new range report 50 t/c hawhen.

that would depend on the state you from smokepole

Aw cap, you spoiled it. But as you said, there is no single "muzzleloading season" but a bunch of different states with a hodge-podge of regulations based on different philosophies and objectives.

As I was present at the time muzzleloading season was established in Missouri, and a dear friend of mine, since deceased, was one of the point men for the establishement I can tell you exactly what the original intent of muzzleloading season was in Missouri. To give an opportunity to those who wished to use the firearms of our predecessors a season not in competition with modern rifles. I believe the exact word used was "experience", of what hunting was like with muzzleloaders. Due to that wording and the fact that modern in-lines were exceedingly uncommon and only one or perhaps two even existed at the time there can be no mistake what the original intent was. Everyone KNEW that by "muzzleloader" it was meant a flint or percussion side lock firing a patched round ball utilizing open sights. That phrase should have been included in the regulation. As the deer herd in Missouri exploded the Dept. of Conservation started using it as management tool. Management may well have been a secondary consideration of the establishment but it was not the original intent. As modern in-lines beame more widely used and lobbied for by their builders the Dept. of Conservation let the nose of the camel in the tent. To use a worn out phrase, "the rest, as they say, is history".

That's how it happened in Maryland too.

To extend my season...dats it!!

In Colorado, the season is intended to give expanded recreational hunting opportunities to those who use a weapon that puts them at a disadvantage compared to centerfire rifles.

Traditionalists are pissed that in-lines are allowed, and the "no holds barred" crowd is pissed that scopes, sabots, pellets, and smokeless are not allowed. Since both ends of the spectrum are pissed, I think the DOW has it about right.

If I had to use a traditional rifle, I would. If I had to use a flintlock, I would.

But I don't and I'm glad I live in a state where I've got a choice.

The biggest advantage of an in-line over a sidelock (in Colorado during the special season) is more reliable ignition. Ignition has never been a problem for me with either kind of rifle; as far as accuracy or quickness of a follow-up shot if you need one, there's no advantage in either.

So it comes down to aesthetics, which are highly personal and not a good basis for regulating something, in my opinion.

I grew up in the 50s and 60s reading books about Davy Crockett, Jim Bridger, Daniel Boone, and other mountain men. When I was 9 yrs old my folks got me a Kentucky Long Rifle (cap toy which fired cork balls) with which "I went exploring" in the nearby woods. I killed many an "Indian" and "kilt" my share or "bars" with that little cap rifle. I developed a broad "Imagination" as to what it would have been like to live back in that time. As I grew older I bought a CVA .50 Cal Mountain Rifle kit and put it together and started killing deer. As someone already said, I love the smell of gun powder. Now days I still have that original kit rifle but have bought several other nice traditional Mountain rifles and Long Rifles in .32, .50, and .54. My .32 cal cap 'n ball Traditions Long Rifle is my favorite squirrel gun. I have another .32 cal cap 'n ball in a TC with a match barrel and rear peep sight I use for target shooting, along with a .50 cal TC with match barrel in flint lock. My favorite deer rifle now days is my .50 cal Pedersoli flintlock long rifle. I have no interest in the modern black powder guns, but every time I go afield with one of my traditional black powder rifles my "Imagination" carries me away to those more innocent times I enjoyed exploring and shooten' "Injuns and bars." "Imagination is a good thing!

OrangeOkie, that is a great, classic story. Lots of the same out there for sure!

That's Colorado and that's your opinion. Your "aesthetic" opinion is no defense in most other states where it is "no holds barred" and there is a decided advantage with in-lines for both sighting and ballistics.

I'm not PO'ed, I simply believe, no, I know, that in Missouri the original intent has been usurped, it is irrefutable. 90% of my hunting is on my land and in-lines aren't allowed on my land during muzzleloading season. That pretty much takes care of it for me.

+1 OrangeOkie! There is some romance left in the world after all. I love the darn things. Also kill a bunch of deer with them, usually 8 - 12 a year.

you know we used to do the same thing here when we still had 1100 acres.
Now north of me , there is still some very, VERY large ranches .
Couple of those sell their tags for general season . They do a very good job of managing the game on their ranches to
They don�t allow muzzleloading unless its traditional . Same with archery . No wheel bows .

When it comes to elk . They give us tags as long as we use traditional muzzleloaders or traditional and primitive archery
If you want to hunt with anything else . Then they charge 1500-2500 for the land owner tag for that year .
Season open Aug 1 and runs through dec 31 .
When it comes to elk they also give us calls so as to tell us where the heards have been seen moving . In some cases when they are getting into the hay stacks , which stacks have been getting hit the hardest .
that�s if we tell them what mornings we will be heading out or call in to the HQ .

By the way Doc White of White Rifles fame wrote about a Swiss inventor named Pauley who developed an inline caplock in 1812 in London and was selling them there. Doc has built several ML rifles with the Pauley "action".

jim

Jim . Most of doc�s rifle don�t use the Perdy or Pauley ignition . He just makes them look that way .
Though he has made a couple that were correct and functionable . one of which I shot some years back at an event he and I were competing in with Crieg Kirkland .

Also it should be noted that inline ignition systems date very early . Some pre 1700 and thus flintlock . But for the most part those have little to do with today�s ignitions or designs. Of which those Doc made were the closest , actualy marketed, to some of the original late designs both working and cosmetic .
But sadly even white muzzleloaders have fallen to the more modern designs

For those who have taken the time to learn about muzzleloading history I doubt any are unaware of the early flint and percussion in-lines. They were very few, never popular and evidently not considered practical and to my knowledge only extant on the Continent. And, vastly different from in-lines of today.

I run a muzzleloader for the sole purpose of extending my hunting season by 10 days. Though I would love to play with the traditional stuff, my body count isn't high enough yet to ditch the scoped inlines. Same reason why I finally bought a bow. It is a Hoyt compound. I would like to play with longbows and make my own bow, I want to up my hunting ability first before worrying about doing it the old fashioned way. Then again, I am probably a few years younger than the brunt of the guys who post on this forum, so my hunting philosophy is a bit different than most.

another reason to be in the woods

that also depends on what a persons definition of inline is .
The early flints were pretty much as you say .
But there were yet others like the Hall rifles which were popular and produce in very large numbers .and produced in both flint and percussion models . Mind you those large numbers were far in excess of the small , possibly 300 a year of the Hawkens brothers
Off the top of my head I want to say total production was some 30,000 , Hall rifles in the same 1820-1840 time frame. Well before the mass production surrounding the civil war production runs .
. In fact it�s the only rifle to be converted from muzzle loading to cartridge and then converted back during a time of war .

Also remember if we are just talking about the ignition itself . Then those numbers grow even larger especially if we include hand guns
Less we forget the colt is an inline ignition
But as you say . Most of those designs only have a lose comparison to today�s models .
However the facts of the mater still cannot be changed . while they do appear to have been troublesome and costly ,they did exist just as did early cartridge applications .

speaking from memory here as it would take me some time to go through my boocks and find the actual name , discussion of this but . I have also read documentation surrounding a larger primer which was very much like the 209 . But not water proof . In fact if I recall , its recorded in the writings of discussions with the masters gun makers of the liege .
While these were somewhat different the late 19th century Boxer and Bearden primers.
The did exist but as I really mostly delineated to artillery pieces as it was thought that such a large primer would mover the charge off the breech during ignition .

I actually fired an original Hall breechloader. An old friend had a half dozen of them in his collection, both flint and percussion. A good idea but way ahead of it's time. We fired the tightest one he had (a cap gun) and it spit out of every nook and cranny. It was very accurate though as I recall. (It was never a ML gun converted to breech loading. It was a fresh design, produced at the Harper's Ferry Arsenal. I can't dispute that some were converted to ML (never say never) but I never heard or read of it. Growing up within spitting distance of Harper's Ferry and Sharpsburg you can imagine the amount of U.S. Martial ML lore I've been exposed to, and the number of guys I knew who collected this stuff in a very serious way. I can remember seeing Hall rifles in local antique shops priced at just a couple hundred dollars- within the last 20 years.

the Hall rifle can be both breech loaded , if you want to call it that but its not breech loading in the since of breech loaders today. its actually a breech block . Even though it is classified as a breech loader. In fact one can remove the breech section from the stock and fire it just as a muzzle loading pistol
it also can be loaded as a muzzleloader without opening the action . this was one of the + to the design as it didn�t require changes to the standard infantry loading procedures

As to converted

Pope , the forgotten rifles .
As such do to the lack of available parts the confederate held model 1819 Hall rifles to this day , hold the distinction of the only firearm to be converted from breech loading to muzzle loading during a time of war

Murphy
Confederate Rifles and muskets .
Model 1819 hall U.S. breech -loading flintlock rifle
Made by HFA under John Hall patent c. 1817, 1819,1823-24 and 1827-40
52 cal . Rifling extended to within 1 � � of the muzzle to allow muzzle loading when necessary .
Earliest production of the hall rifles was in Portland Maine . Hall is known to have supplied 100 of his improved flintlock rifles to the us government in 1817. No known example exists today . However it is thought that they were very similar to his sporting model then being produced in Yarmouth and Portland Maine.
His patented design became the first breech loading military arm in large quantities and adopted as regulation weapon nationally

Numerous variations appear
a large number of these are in southern arsenals at the out break of the civil war and were altered by confederate states to percussion..

The Hall model 1819 also bears the distinction of being the only gun presented by Act of Congress of the U.S. in lieu of a medal or other citation for gallantry in battle .
15 hall rifles , all of them 1824 production , were awarded to Americans who , ten years earlier, during the war of 1812, as school boys mostly 15 years of age , had volunteered and were accepted into service with the U.S. forces during the siege of Plattsburgh, NY, in 1814. They preformed heroically in the defense of a bridge against advancing British troops

good morning all .
sorry i had to run when i made the last post .

so ill try and finish .

So as was shown above . Not all Hall rifles were made at HFA.
Also while the earlier Hall rifles were flintlock . The l 1833, 1836 , 1840 type 1 and 2 1842, 1843 hall-North , were all percussion guns

Let me also exsplain something I said

.

Im not sure we could today yet pin down what rifle was the first to go from muzzleloader to breech loader , to cartridge and back to muzzleloader .
The reason being , by the end of the civil war , the confederates were trying to field as many rifles as possible .
Many of these has started life as muzzleloaders then were converted to breechloader . There were a whole lot of different people offering conversions but the most commonly know was the Linder and Merrill alterations .
Then out came the next conversions to cartridge. Both Springfield and harpers ferry were doing this to early muskets many of which were 1816 -1841 models�

Now why is this important . Well because if one even casually looks you see that the Hall design was the key to that evolution.
If you go back even farther . We see that what Hall actually did was build on the very old Breech block application which had been used Very early in artillery and in some case Gunne�s. in yet other cases that breech block . well its a cartradge .

Now this is where it gets kind of tricky concerning the Hall rifles .
See as time goes on and more and more information is found . Things change .
Not so long ago some of the J.B Barrett rifles were given their own distinct production
However we now know that at least some of these , were not Barrett rifles at all. Instead they were Hall rifles that Barrett converted and then put his name on
Madus writes :


So maybe POPE did know what he was talking about , because here we have yet another conversion happening to the Hall rifles .

So where am I going with all this .
Well while it doesn�t tie into the main topic here . It ties into what some folks believe and or have said .
See history is a strange thing . It gets even stranger when you define it down to American history . The reason is that we have a tendency to pick and chose the history we want to believe then define our choices as fact .
When in fact the truth is that there was a whole lot going on and what we want to believe isn�t always so cut and dried .

The fact is that from day one of firearms evalution , muzzle loading , breech loading and even cartridge evolution all were taking place at the very same times . not just in the 19 century as many would believe or have you believe .
Thus in many cases what we think as common really isn�t as common as we would like to think .

In this case we have the Hall Rifles which were produce in far greater numbers then Hawkens rifles . Which in fact were produced in far , FAR, lesser numbers then the Hennery , derringer and Leman . Even though they all were being produce at the very same time . Yet somehow we have grasp onto the Hawken rifle as being the weapon of choice . When in fact by the Hawkens own documentation , that could never have been the case do to shear numbers of firearms being manufactured in theta timefraim .
So we continue to bastardize and not give credit where credit is do . We continually try and proclaim something is the same when in fact it may or may not be .

Today most modern inline ignition designs have very little to nothing in common with original inline ignition designs . Simply put they have evolved to have far more in common with cartridge designs then the efficiency and reliability of the muzzle loading forerunners .
but We also have to realize that those cartridge designs , also had their applications in the evolution of the firearms as such we can some parts directly back to earlier designs and many times muzzle loading designs .

Same thing can be said about some mass produced traditional designs , which we all accept as traditional . While they are side locks and such what we chose to describe them as is all to often not even close . Do they function the same . Yes . But in some cases just like some of Doc whites Pauley replicas , its purely cosmetic .

Anyway . This is to long and I find myself writing a book that probably very few will understand .
Be safe and have a very good day

Cap,what you HAVE done is expand knowledge and some understanding,which the Campfire does with some verve!!! Where else could we go to get into insane political arguments and call each other names yet at the same rendezvous, get to see the type of input like you just gave us. Anytime you wanna do this, I am rivetted. Thanx Cap.

Well said cap....well said.

Vic

Josh,

I've been shooting modern MZ's for quite some time now. I really dig a removable plug and easy cleaning. Our season here starts the very next day that rifle season closes so all I need to do is swap out the tags, grab a different rifle and the beat goes on!

Well, not exactly. By that I mean it's not only my opinion, but also the opinion of the Colorado DOW, the Colorado State Muzzle Loaders Association, and the NMLRA, the latter two of course being oriented toward traditional rifles. When I interviewed representatives of all three organizations back in 2003 on this very subject, they were all of the opinion that an in-line rifle holds no significant advantage over a traditional rifle, excluding scopes, sabots, pellets, and smokeless. Which are all illegal in Colorado.

And as far as what you do on your own private property, that's really no one's business but your own.

I like the one shot, being able to hunt in mountains just as the leaves and weather start to change. Muzzleloading is a lot of fun with all the products out there that allow you to try new things just for the heck of it.

I like looks I get from other hunters. You see here there is no muzzleloader season you are in general rifle.

Ha, I like the looks I get from other hunters when I'm packing out a full load of meat on my back. Especially guys half my age.

It is refreshing not to have to trim brass and all the assorted chores.
I like to just pour powder and ram down the ball!
I got a mold with the gun that I bought used at a gun show.
I killed a deer with a 54 caliber Renegade with a Maxi Ball that I cast myself. Good Times!
whelennut

There is something wrong with that. I too own a 54 cal. Renegade.

because it gives me 7 more days of deer hunting!

Gives me time in the woods. Usually with some snow on the ground. And hardly another soul ever seen.

There's a lot of factors in play for me. I shoot a very basic .54 cal CVA Hawkins. I've been carrying that rifle for well over 20 years now. I like the heft of it, as it's not a light weight gun. It just feels "right" somehow. I've always been impressed with the consistent accuracy of the gun. I worked on loads for the first several failed attempts, and now it's to the point that I know if I miss a shot, it's pilot error, and not an equipment issue.

When I carry the Hawkins, I feel like I'm getting back a little closer to the roots of what hunting was like in a bygone era. You have to think much more about getting into a good shooting position with the ML than you do with a center fire. Shots need to be more calculated. You can't just jam it through whatever shooting situation presents it's self and hope for the best. You've got one shot, and you absolutely must make it count.

It's cheap and fun to shoot. I don't even mind the cleaning-to me the hot soapy water at the day's end is just part of the fun. I like the looks I get when folks see me with that big gun. I've tried the in-lines, and while they are incredibly easy to use, for me, it's just not the same. If anything, I want to hang up my percussion gun and get a nice flinter. I've shot them many times, and it truly is a whole different game. The guys that can make their flinters hum are damned good riflemen in my book.

To quote Kipling, "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet." Such is the same when it comes to dedicatees of in-lines v. traditionals. The two are technically the same but fundamentally different. I suspect the differences between the two speak to basic differences in the personalities of those who use them.

Perhaps what the campfire needs is two muzzle loading forums.

Really? How so? Is a guy who appreciates both schizophrenic?

Edited to add: Seriously though, your contention above implies a consistency of "personality types" within both groups, which is an interesting observation. I haven't seen it myself, but then again, most of the guys I know who shoot muzzleloaders are not strict traditionalists.

I was referring to guys dedicated to one or the other, and who defend that dedication vociferously.

Guys who swing both ways I guess are perhaps a horse of a different color!

Bottom line: it's all good. I think those of us who harbor opposing viewpoints on this subject on a forum like this would get along fine in person, on a rifle range doing what we love, or in unity against the forces that would strip us of that right.

No, just means he goes both ways.




I figure they might wear pink boots but otherwise look like any ordinary guy.

It is interesting how many homo references you get here when talking about guns....




Couldn't agree more.

As far as defending one or the other vociferously, I think that's the province of traditionalists mostly, which is what I was getting at with my question above (the serious one).

Guys who hunt with traditional rifles or bows pretty much do it for consistent reasons (you know what they are), which could point to some basic similarities in personality.

Guys who hunt with in-lines do it primarily to expand their hunting seasons, which IMO leaves a lot more room for variability in motivations and personalities.

For what it's worth.

And, last but not least, on the subject of "defending one or the other vociferously," guys who defend the use of in-lines normally do it in response to traditionalists who malign in-lines. It normally doesn't happen the other way around, i.e., guys who use in-lines don't normally malign traditional rifles in these kinds of debates. Lots of guys (probably most guys) who shoot in-lines think traditional rifles are pretty cool.

So the question is, why the need for traditionalists to malign in-lines? Why not just subscribe to the philosophy outlined by gnoahhh above?

Is it a need to feel superior, or what? Many times, I believe it is, so I'd ask, what is this feeling of superiority based on?

I've killed deer with traditional rifles and in-lines. As long as you're talking a caplock vs. an unscoped in-line with similar propellants and projectiles, the "challenge factor" is the same.

At a hunter advisory group meeting,CO DOW by thier own admission,would have outlawed inlines, but they let it get to far along. After that they jumped on anything pretty quick that did not lend itself to a traditonal type ML season.Scopes,optic sights smokeless powder, electronic ignition, sabots, all are illegal.

I was around when the ML season was established in CO.The intent was much as what has been posted about MO ML season.

The Colorado Muzzle Loader Associtation, which was at the time, all traditional shooters,lobbied to get a ML season going. At the time it was a small group,much like the archery hunters in the70's, and the DOW let it in.

If there was any way for CO DOW to do it with out a hugh outcry from hunters, the inlines would be banned immdiately.

I shoot both.

That's a crock. According to the people I talked to at the DOW. One of 'em was responsible for coordinating all inputs on muzzleloader regs.

Not sure who you talked to, but the DOW is has a lot of different people working for it, all with their own opinions.

Besides, if they're trying to recruit more hunters (they are) why on earth would they outlaw something as popular as in-lines for the special early season?

That just flat doesn't make sense.

Let me add a little background. In 2003 I wrote an article for publication on this subject, traditional vs. modern muzzleloaders, and specifically, the rationale for Colorado's muzzleloader regs. The article was based on interviews with NMLRA, the Colorado State organization, and DOW, including the hunting regulations coordinator responsible for muzzleloader regs. The article was reviewed by DOW and they published it in their magazine.

What I said above about the Colorado regs was pretty much verbatim from the article, so it's fair to say it was as close as you're gonna get to the DOW position.

DOW has made a determination that an in-line ignition, by itself, offers no significant advantage over a sidelock. So if they were to ban in-lines, what would be their basis?

i have gotten the same thing smokepole from both Co and Id Dept . both separately and while in joint meetings .

but we should keep in mind that like all politicians , they say what the think most of the folks listening , want to hear .
i have had Idaho commissioners tell me one thing strait to my face over coffee
but then a couple days later over the phone when they think im someone else who may be against a given view . well the tune is sang differently ..
but changes are coming . there is alot of different reasons for that .
as i said before things are not so black and white . many times they have nothing to do with what is seen on the surface or what we are being told .
So as the winds of politics change . So will the winds of hunting in this state anyway .


PS.
i wouldn�t count on what the regulations saying as being the opinion of anyone . especially game commissions .
i can tell you with 100% certainty that if it was not for the governor of Idaho a couple years back we would not have seen the changes we did .

See here . The commissioners sit by the pleasure of the governor. If they want to say on the board . They jump when he says jump
Again . Things are not always what they seem

Well, that's still Colorado, not the other 49 sates. Us trad guys don't rely on techy stuff to do for us what we can do for ourselves. I won't repeat some of the things I've been told by some in-line users, before I said anymore than "I hunt with a flintlock". But I bet the older trad guys have heard the same things. Same with a recurve or longbow as opposed to cam actuated arrow launching device.

As a related example, if you realllyyy stretch it. I like to sail. I had my little boat, a 12 footer, at a small, local public lake. I was coming in to the ramp and there was this fella launching his high tech bass boat..that thing shined like new money and had more gizmos and gadgets on it than I can begin to tell you. He's watching me come in and his mouth is almost agape. Now this little lake doesn't see but very, very little sail boat traffic, maybe 2-3 times a year, and one could hardly call Missouri an end destination when it comes to sailing. Anyway...I jump out of the boat and the guy says, "that thing really goes, doesn't it". I said, "well...yes, it does". He looked that simple little boat over like it was from outer space. Then asked, "where's the motor?" Doesn't have one...you'd have thought I kicked him in the testicles...and he told me I was nuts whereupon I got a too lengthy semi-lecture on how much better his bass boat was than my simple little 12 foot, sloop rigged sail boat. I said to him, "Well, I like to sail, and how do you think Columbus got here?" He stormed off incredulous and I hadn't said more than 20 words and none in a caustic or sarcastic manner. I'm glad I didn't ask him how much gas it used.

is it just me or do the traditional guys seem to be whiners?

I hunts with a flintlock!

Yeah well guess what, thats a modern upgrade compared to a matchlock!