Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Again, Why The .325 WSM?

Just a question to speculate on and converse about. I find it very interesting that in 2001 an Australian, Breil Jackson, Editor of Guns and Game magazine developed the .35 Sambar. The first rifle was built on a Model 70 Winchester Classic 300 WSM action and is simply the .300 WSM necked up to .35 caliber giving a 250-grain bullet 2700 fps with 72 grains of H4350. This came about because of the popularity of the .35 Whelen on sambar deer apparently and the result was a very good, balanced cartridge maybe a step if that behind the .338 Win mag and the .358 Norma.

Assuming Winchester knew about this wildcat was it the history of the .35s in the states that made them detour eventually to the .325 (as if the 8mms have such a stellar history here). Anyway, thought I rustle up some thoughts.

George

The American public was waiting for the .25 WSM and the .338 WSM. Both of these cartridges would have generated lots of sales and, even more importantly, would have been enormously useful rounds.

As it is, we got the oddball .25 WSSM (Yuk) and the 8m/m WSM. Jeez.

I could not have stated this when I was a gun writer, but now that I've quit, I can be totally open with my opinion. The .325 WSM cartridge, while it may be a good round, will never be the commercial success that the .338 WSM would have been.

In other words, it is a brainfart.

Just my opinion, but it is the opinion of most active shooters, as well

Steve

This is just my opinion, but I used to work for Roy Weatherby and Roy thought that .35 caliber would never be popular in the US. We had this conversation while my .358 Norma was being chrono'd at his place. Roy said he considered the .35 after the 338 was introduced, but he was going to call it the Nine Mag. His friends at Norma did not like the one up on their cartridge and Roy knew the gun scribes would blow the whistle on the .35 caliber so he went with the .340.
Remington has introduced several .35's and they have not become rock star popular. The 8mm Rem was a flop also.
Recoil was a problem for some with the 350 Rem and it was unpleasant in that ugly rifle. However recoil is recoil and I launch 310 Woodliegh bullets at close to 2,600 fps wih my old Norma and it feels like a 375 H&H because it duplicates the 375 ballistics. Norma lists the .358 at 2,850 fps with a 250 gr for 4,350 ft lbs. Thats a bit much for the average Joe in the US. My 7 lb Husky will indeed knock ones hat off. I do not plink with the old gal. The late Finn Aagard shot feral cattle with her and was impressed. To use one is to love one. Its been over 40+ years for me.
-Doc-
-Doc-

DZ and XXBob--

I think the .325 will also languish commercially. And I will submit that if you could keep a hunter from knowing what he is shooting he could hunt and take game for years alternately with the .300 WSM and the .325 and he would never know the difference. I don't think there is a significant field difference between the two.
While I obviously don't really know, I do think there would have been a market for the .35 WSM and I say that based on the proliferation of magnums ofthe last ten years or so ; maybe not ten or twenty years ago but I do think it (or .338 WSM) would go now. Interesting.
Apparently, years ago when the 8mm Rem mag was intrduced to some gunwriters Elmer Keith remarked, "What's it good for?" It seem to me Win followed Rem's commercial faux paus all over again with the .325

George

It seems to me, and i could be wrong, that cartridges are either thought up by marketing guys or ballisticians, but rarely a combination of both. Supposedly the .325 will shoot as flat as a 300WSM but with a larger bullet for bigger big game. While there are some good .323" bullets out there, it has to be one of the least developed as far as a plethora of bullets are concerned.Realistically this is all perception as was stated by someone else, would and could any of us know the difference between a 300WSM or the 325WSM with perfect shot placement, i really doubt it.

In my not so humble opinion, Winchester should have gone with a bigger bullet, .358", .366", or even .375" would have covered the upper end of the bullet weight spectrum, but hey what the hell do i know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A recent American Rifleman article said that Winchester chose 8mm because the WSM case doesn't have enough capacity to compete with the 338 WM. They needed to use a smaller bore to get the velocities they needed to be able to successfully market the thing. I don't know what happened to the short and fat is more efficient sales pitch. And why they thought anybody would buy an 8mm is a mystery.

I know a couple of things here:

First, it has been generally acknowledged for years among many experienced hands in the U.S. firearms industry that no 6.5mm, 8mm or .35 will ever set sales records. Why, nobody knows, but the fact remains that the .260 Remington (fine cartridge that it is) never has sold nearly as well as the 7mm-08. (In fact, 7mm's seem to sell almost automatically--especially if they are called 7mm, rather than .280.)

There isn't much track record on 8mm's, but what exists is abysmal.

The only .35 that has ever became a standard number and survived for very long is the .35 Remington. From what I understand the .35 Whelen sold around 25,000 rifles when it was "factoryized" by Remington, then sales stopped quickly and almost permanently.

Now and then some company chambers the Whelen (or the .358 WCF or .350 Rem.) and sells a few thousand, but the demand gets filled quickly and the sales taper off--something that doesn't happen with any haflway successful 7mm or .30.

Second, my personal wind-flag for rifle sales is a local store. Almost without fail, if they are selling a lot of something, it is hot nationally. If they aren't, it ain't. So far they have had a couple of half-assed questions about the .325, but no orders. An no, they don't intend to stock any, just in case.

MD

If Remington picks up the 325 in its SPS, the rest will be history.

I'll buy one, shoot 220s and retire the 338.

My opinion is if Col. Charles Askins could not get folks to buy 8 mm rifles when he was the house writer for the NRA, then it is not going to happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim

Hey I forgot about the good Col and how he loved to pose with "piles" of dead Africian critters and praise the 8mm.
He wrote for Petersen also as I recall. I sort of liked the ole fart. He like Jack and Elmer loved their own opinons.
Thanks Jim. Are you the Jim from "just Jim" the dude that took over after Jack ???
-Doc-

With all the choices available, I don't understand why any well-informed person would buy a rifle chambered for any cartridge less than ten years old.

That way, you can see if it will catch on.

Personally, I think that all the Remington SAUMs will go the way of the 325 WSM--extinct very soon.

From a personal standpoint, I find the 325 to be a phonomenally welcome cartridge introduction. Of course, there also happens to be a large stockpile of 200 gr 8mm partitions in my loading supplies cabinet. These are used to feed a good quantity of 8x57's, a sentimental favorite of mine.For someone that doesn't own a bunch of 8mms, buying the 300 wsm makes a great deal more sense, IMHO.

Me too. Which has nothing to do with the "German" diameter: I like every new cartridge I can work with and write about.

Concerning 325 WSM and 25 WSSM, I think this is a clever Winchester decision because all the shooters waiting badly for 338 WSM or 25 WSM in any case do wait for it some more months - enough time for Big Red to sell the "unloved" cartridges and rifles *in addition* to the expected ones.
RD

If the bullet companies come out with enough good options in the caliber, I'd be pretty tempted to try one out. JMO.

8mm Bullets O'plenty

The .323 bore is not lacking for good bullets.

I have been eye balling my PF Winny in .243 for a possible swap job. I just hate to be without the .243...May have to add another iron to the fire and look for a donor..

Mike

For what it's worth, I read somewhere that the reason we won't be seeing a .338 caliber WSM is that the neck was too short to properly hold the bigger .338 bullets due to the shape of the most popular ogives causing the bullet to lack grip when loaded to proper length.
I too would be interested more in the .325 if it had 250 grain bullets in either Barnes Triple X, or in Nosler Partitions - but then, maybe they'ed be too long too - and I don't know if they'd stabilize in a standard twist barrel. Anyone else hear this story out of Winchester?

the 350 mag leaves nothing on the table in the OAL dept so i dont think that 338 would either. wildcats have been up to 458 in a 2.8" box.

probably just rumors or more marketing circle jerk. could be wrong but i see no reason not to bring out the 338.

good news is now i can do a one pass neck size to get the brass i need <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

also, maybe the real guns will come out with the 338 and 25 and have a 700 samped on them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

woofer

I personally find it to be a lackluster development. However many of my associates (read..LOONIES) to quote a current outdoor and gun writer/enthusiast, are salivating at the new combo's they can dream up to get the nth degree out of it.
Will not sell well but gets some use out of old 8 Mauser components if nothing else.

"It seems to me, and i could be wrong, that cartridges are either thought up by marketing guys or ballisticians, but rarely a combination of both" - well said, but I find that you must get the marketing guys involved on the front end 'cause if they can not find a way to sell it, don't bother building it. I find this to be the case often at the firm I sell for, the tech guys come up with som idea that they think is great and then we (the sales guys) have to find some reason for a customer to actually pay for it. the idea may be cool but what it the value proposition and will somebody actually lay out their hard earned cash for it.

For reasons I can not explain, the 338 cal just seems "sexier" than a 35 or 8mm. maybe 'cause the 338 win mag is so versital. who knows but the 338 does sell well when you get in the class of "over 30 cal cartridges" and I would have bought one just for the fun of it. I was one of those waiting for the 25wsm but Iam over that now, I simply like my 25-06 to much to leave at home, kinda like leaving your best girl home on a saturday night.

There maybe a lot of 8mm bullets out there, but there is a serious lack of 8mm 220 grain bullets. It's this bullet weight that seperates the 8mm from the 30 caliber.

I think the 8mm is a very good caliber, but I won't buy a 325wsm until there is a 220 grain partition.

By the way, didn't Charlie Sisk do some pressure testing with the 325? What ever happened with that?