Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots 1885 Low Wall .22 Hornet?

Hi guys, I've spent a load of time the past two weeks on the internet researching - and ran across this forum. I was impressed with the quality and expertise of information posted to this forum, signed up and now here I am asking for input.

I will be ordering, in the near future, an C.Sharp 1885 Low Wall - caliber .22 Hornet. This rifle will have a heavy, 34" barrel with 1:12 twist for the .224 bullet diameter. I will use this rifle to shoot offhand, with Creedmore sights, out to 200 yards.

I would appreciate any comments on this rifle.

I have never reloaded, but will begin with this rifle. There is tons of information available for bullets and loads up to 55gr and I'm expecting this rifle to shoot very well with loads from 40gr to 55gr. What I've been looking for, and unable to find, is any information on loads and performance for the 60gr bullet. I was hoping to shoot the Sierra 63gr SMP, the Nosler 60gr Partition and the Hornady 60gr SP as an upper end hunting load.

What's become apparent from reading threads on this forum, as well as others, is that the light powder load of the Hornet and the OAL of the cartridge will be limiting factors.

So my big question is simply, and without regard to how well it performs, will I be able to shoot this round?

Thanks ahead of time and I will be double posting this over on a Hornet thread.

I had a Browning Low Wall .22 Hornet a few years ago. Excellent rifle, best of three Hornets I have owned. I mainly stuck with 40 grain bullets though. Hodgdon Lil'Gun was excellent in that rifle, and others have reported simillar results. I would check to see if a 1:12 twist is enough to stabilize the heavy bullets you mention, as they won't be going very fast.

I did not know Shiloh Sharps was making 1885's, although C. Sharps has for a while, and their guns are well regarded.

If I had one again, I also think I would go for the .218 Bee, or the .22 K-Hornet - the former for a bit more capacity, and both for better brass life.

I think the OP Meant "C.Sharps"


I see nothing about Shiloh mentioned.

I took "S.Sharp" to mean the Shiloh Mfg company, which is known for Sharps. Apologies if I jumped to conclusions.

Tex.. I can see where you'd might take it that way..

My apologies for jumping to conclusions about your conclusions...

I figured I would respond in a bit more detail after I saw your mention of using this rifle as some sort of an offhand target rifle. I am writing this as a long time BPCR shooter who worked himself into master class a few years ago, I also love the Hornet and really enjoy shooting single shots offhand.

First of all forget the 34" barrel -period. I realize there is SOME advantage to a longer sighting plane with a 34" tube but that is offset by BARREL TIME in the gun- which matters a lot shooting offhand. Then there is the balance issue. A short heavy barrel will balance just as well and be stiffer than a longer barrel.

Most offhand guns at the turn of the 19th century were 28 to 30" barreled rifles. I have used 28" barreled Sharps rifles to run 10 Turkeys straight at 400 yards in BPCR Silhouette, so I can tell you from experience, a 34" barrel is of no advantage at 200 yards.

The next issue I need to bring up is why the Hornet? It is s a great varmint Hunting cartridge but not a target round for old style Schteuzen matches etc. If you just want to have fun and not compete formally in those types of matches, a Hornet is great. If you want to actually compete in a cast bullet 200 yards match perhaps a .25 to 32 cal cartridge is what you need.

Really, if you want THE best cartridge to get your feet wet with a fine single shot my advice is to START with a 22Long rifle.

The C Sharps low walls are barrel with fine badger barrels and normally shoot with match grade accuracy. 22 LR is a sound investment for two reason- first- the round itself is cheap and convenient. It is so accurate that at 100 yard especially it will be every bit as good as a Hornet for punching paper. You can spend you time SHOOTING instead of hand loading.

Also, most traditional cast bullet Scheutzen matches have 22 LR divisions and there is NO better way to learn from the masters of the sport than to shoot 22s along side them.

And lastly, your finished 1885 offhand rifle will be more valuable in 22 LR than it would be in a Hornet,IMHO.
Most Hornet users are hunters and any rifle over about 8 lbs with a barrel longer than 28 inches starts to get outside of what most folks want in a Hornet. On the other hand, finely made 22 LR "understudy" rifles are always in demand no matter what their configuration.

Those are just my thoughts..

You were not wrong to infer as you did and my apologies for the oversight of not catching my misprint. I found it surprising that so many of these fine suppliers of firearms and accessories are located in Montana, but then on second thought they do have a strong libertarian streak up there.

Thanks Jim - excellent points, many of which I've been tossing around in my head these past weeks.

"Barrel time" - you know, I've seen only one other mention of this (and who knows it may have been you). I currently shoot the fine CZ Ultra Lux with the 29" barrel. The way I figured it, the increased velocity of the Hornet offsets the extra 5" and the two should shoot approximately the same.

The balance issue is one I've searched for and haven't found addressed, which is why I've finally registered to this forum so to get some direct response. I'm trying to get a response from C.Sharps on the weight and want to keep it under 11 lbs. To address the stiffness issue I'm going with the #3 barrel rather than the more common standard #2. I'm not going with the #1 because of the weight and figured the #3 was a fine compromise. This whole thing is still roiling around in my mind and subject to change.

The only practical reason for my going with the 34" barrel is the sight radius. The other is simply the "wow" factor.

Why the Hornet? My first choice was the .223, but it's not a rimmed cartridge. My intent was never to enter competition and that possibility only entered my mind later. I currently shoot my CZ offhand with iron sights at 25yds and 50yds and was simply wanting a "hot" .22 to reach out to 100yds and 150yds. When I got to studying the Hornet, I was attracted to it's low report and negligible recoil.

The thought to buy this rifle in .22 caliber did enter my mind, but I already have the fine Ultra Lux.

After I started my research the thought of competitive shooting began entering my mind and I soon realized the Hornet was not a good chambering for silhouette. I ran across the word "Schteuzen" and knew it was a style of match but never heard of one being held in my neck of the woods. I don't recall looking up the details but from your description it sounds more suitable to my capabilities. I'm 63 years old and only took up shooting a year and a half ago. I'm OK good but no where near competitive good. I can google this, but would appreciate further comments on Schteuzen match shooting.

Same for .25 to .32 calibers.

My thoughts here were that I wanted a caliber that I did not have to rely on handloads and could run down to Academy and purchase a box. Hornets are not common but are available.

How's the kick on these other calibers.

I think you can tell that the questions you raised are the same as what has been troubling me. I think when it comes right down to it, my use of the gun will simply be as a fun gun to shoot. And this means that balance becomes the deciding factor. I need to get the balance right. You mention that a short heavy barrel will balance just as well as the longer barrel. My question is: will the longer barrel balance as well as my short, heavy barrel Hawkens.

I would like to know more about these Schteuzen matches. Would a Hornet qualify?

Oh, I just thought of the other reason for going with the 34" barrel. You gain approximately 20 fps in velocity for each extra inch. To shoot 60gr bullets, I want to stay above 2000 fps at 150 yds. Every extra bit helps.

And again, thanks for the excellent input.

George

George, I agree with Jim, just about across the board. I don't think you will gain that muzzle velocity you are expecting either. Barrel length is an issue with diminishing returns. Besides, what needs to be 2000 fp at 150 yds anyway. The best accuracy will be far below that in other cartridges.

For my money, I would consider either a .25-20 (either of the two chamberings) or a .32-40 if C. Sharps feel that the action is strong enough. The latter is probably the most accurate singleshot caliber out there and one that will easily kill deer.

Slow your bullet, shorten your barrel, and lighten you rifle and in the end, I think you will shoot it a lot more. At least I would.

Brent

Here are my thought to someof your comments above-

"The balance issue is one I've searched for and haven't found addressed, which is why I've finally registered to this forum so to get some direct response. I'm trying to get a response from C.Sharps on the weight and want to keep it under 11 lbs. To address the stiffness issue I'm going with the #3 barrel rather than the more common standard #2. I'm not going with the #1 because of the weight and figured the #3 was a fine compromise. This whole thing is still roiling around in my mind and subject to change.The only practical reason for my going with the 34" barrel is the sight radius. The other is simply the "wow" factor."


As I said, the sight radius really is no big deal even at 200 yards. And adding another 6 " of barrel will ad more "whip" even of barrel with the same diameter- the longer one is not a stiff. No reason whatsoever to get a 34" barrel. Even with a 28" barrel you will have NO trouble getting 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity with a 22 Hornet load using LILGUN powder and higher BC slugs like the various 40g ballistic tip type slugs. According to my ballistic programs, it should stay above 2,000 FPS all the way out to 200 yards easily.

"The thought to buy this rifle in .22 caliber did enter my mind, but I already have the fine Ultra Lux."

No excuse. The Ultra lux is a fine gun( I have owned several), but comparing it to a finely made 1885 low wall with a #3 weight barrel is like saying" I really don't need a Ferrari- I already have an Impala station wagon in the garage that burns gasoline.." LOL.. Seriously they are night and day different even when both are chambered in 22LR.

The 1885 will weight about 10 to 10.5 lbs in a 22 LR with a 28 to 30" barrel. That's three pounds heavier than the CZ 452. The vernier sights on the 1885 are likewise totally different. As accurate as you may be offhand with the CZ you will be in a different league with the 1885.

As to chambering, I hear you about your needs and if you do not intend to shoot sanctioned traditional Schutzen offhand matches- nothing wrong with the Hornet.

As matter of fact, both components and loaded ammo will be easier to find for it than either the 25-20 or the 32-20 these days.

Here is what I would get if I were you.

1885 Low Wall- number 3 weight Barrel 28"
Crecent buttplate, Pistol grip stock
with single set trigger.

That gun would be "all rifle". No fluff. And will put them in the ten ring with good ammo, sights and shooter behind it.

I have been going back and forth for two weeks over barrel length - whether to go with the 30" or 34". Ninety percent of the time, I shoot my CZ at 25yds. If I stay off caffeine, and I'm really on, I shoot 1 1/2" groups (off hand with aperture sights). Driving into town for breakfast this morning I got to thinking, if I stick with the 30" barrel, this may just be what I need to get me to the next level.

The long range (150 yd) hunting round I'd like to load for is the Nosler 60gr Partition. For acceptable expansion at 150 yards I need 2000 fps. Over at the Hornet thread, John used 10.3 gr of L'l Gun out of a 21" Contender with a 1:12 twist and got 2450 fps with 1" groups at 100 yds.

The discussion here has persuaded me to go with the 30" barrel.

I think I'll stick with .22 Hornet. Reading up on Schteuzen matches, I found nothing that would disqualify the Hornet. I say this because I thought I had read previously that calibers were restricted to those originating in the 1800's.

(edit) I posted this before I read your response, Jim. Other than the 30" barrel, the rifle you describe is precisely what I've spec'ed out. Now you've got me thinking about 28".

As a more practical matter, and wet blanket, the heavier bullets you mentioned, 60 Partition, 63 Sierra, etc. might be too long for the 1-12" twist barrel, when fired at the slow speeds a Hornet is capable of.

I'm fully aware that they work in faster cartridges, but with the velocities available with Hornet capacities, I doubt they'd be fast enough to stabilize.

A Donaldson Wasp, .225 Winchester, .219 Zipper, all are rimmed or semi-rimmed, and might work better with the proposed twist rate/bullets mentioned.

You need to research scheutzen matches again. Almost all center fire scheutzen matches use CAST LEAD BULLETS ONLY - NO JACKETED SLUGS. Now ask anyone who's shot Scheutzen matches if a .22 cal rifle would be a good choice for a an accurate 200 yard rifle shooting cast lead slugs. The last 150 years of Scheutzen experience says no way.

Like I said. If you want to shoot for your own pleasure, the 22 Hornet is fine- but it would be far down the list of usable calibers for Scheutzen matches.

That is why I tried to give you some good advice about the 22LR. it is the ONLY competitive caliber one can use in a sanctioned Schutzen match that you can actually buy loaded ammo for off the shelf.. If you want to ever shoot centerfire Scheutzen, you need to go toa 25-20 or 32.20 at least and get into precision bullet casting.

BTW, Why use a 60g bullet in a 22 Hornet? It makes no sense. I am not saying it can't be loaded, but even the fastest twist seen in most Hornets is a 1-14" twist. I believe that is what C Sharps uses. That bullet does not even stabilize well in many 22-250s with 1-14" twists at 3,500 FPS let alone ,2,500FPS in a Hornet..

Besides that fact, unless you plan on hunting deer with it, the 40g slugs are MUCH faster and will actually hit harder.
A 40g Hornady V max leaving a 30" barrel at 3,000FPS from the muzzle will be going over 2,000FPS AT 200 yards.

At 200 yards, that is like walking up to something and sticking the muzzle of a 22 mag rifle loaded with 40g HP loads on it and pulling the trigger. Plenty of power unless you are trying to kill deer with it. Not to mention buck wind much better and shoot flatter.
And, the Vmax or Ballistic tip type 40g slugs will likely shoot into TINY little groups at 100 yards when shot from neck sized, fireformed cases..

Just the voice of experience.

I never meant to imply that I would use the heavier bullet exclusively. In fact I'll be finding a lighter bullet for the majority of my range shooting which will be at 100 yds and occasionally moving over to 150 yds and 200 yds. And in fact, I don't hunt.

I asked C.Sharp what twist the Hornet came in, without mentioning what I wanted and thinking it would be a 1:16 or a 1:14, and they responded that it was 1:12. This is what got me to thinking about the heavier bullet. The 1:12 is ideal for the 60gr.

I found a Hornet load on the internet using a cast 56 gr Lyman (old die no longer available commercially) with 13.6/WW680 producing 2820 fps and producing .75" groups at 100 yds, 1.5" groups at 150 yds and 2.25" groups at 200 yds and near 4" groups at 250 yds.

This information made me think that the Hornet would be serviceable in competition and would in fact shoot better than I can aim.

Our gun club holds monthly competitions, but beyond these friendly weekend shoots, I won't be doing any sanctioned shooting.

Ahhh.. OK.

1-12 is actually a pretty rare twist rate for the Hornet.

T/C and H&R/NEF were the only major companies I was aware of that used it.

Well, if you ar game to try the Hornet in Scheutzen competition, more power to you.

The guys who shoot Scheutzen count on groups of about 2" or less at 200 yards off of a rest under perfect conditions just to stay competitive.

On thing is for sure. No matter WHAT caliber or configuration you get in a C Sharps 1885 Low wall , YOU WILL have a ball with it!

I immediately realized how unorthodox the 1:12 twist is in the Hornet. I've never reloaded - I guess I'll have a new hobby. And I imagine that all the old ballistic tables will have to be reconsidered to find what works best in this barrel.

Even in the 1-12 twist- the 40g Plastic tipped slugs will be hard to beat for accuracy in any twist barrel.

I have gotten sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards with them in Hornets with 1-16" twists

They have even been known to shoot just as well in 1-8 twist .223s pushing them at 3,600FPS+

I would get one box each of the 40g Hornady Vmax, 40g Nolser BT and the 40g Sierra Blitzking- all plastic pointed.

If you rifle does not shoot at least one of those slugs into less than 1/2 scoped at 100 yards. I would be shocked.

Every Browning 1885 Low Wall I have owned would do it with them.

And again, even with a 12 twist, the Hornet cannot push a 60gr. bullet fast enough to stabilize it. I can't repeat that enough.

If you want to shoot schuetzen, you're probably better off with a .32/40 or .38/55, something with enough mass to work in the wind at 200 yards.

Since I haven't actually shot this rifle just yet, I haven't first hand experience to comment on this. I inquired about this load in the reloading thread,on this forum, and campfire kahuna Mule Deer responded that he was surprised to find that the 60gr Partition would stabilize in his T/C Contender Carbine with a 21" barrel and 1:12 twist. He got 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

I do not intend making this heavy load my primary round, but I do intend knowing what the full capabilities of my rifle are.

I do not intend shooting competitive Schuetzen. My primary distance with this rifle will be off hand shooting at 100 yds, but my gun club does have friendly monthly competitions and so occasionally I'll be shooting at 150 and 200 yds.

For these longer distances I have found a reliable source who has had success with a 56gr cast bullet, getting 1 1/2" groups at 150 yds and 2 1/4" groups at 200 yds.

So I'm sure I can find a load to at least duplicate this, and I'll just have to see if I can do better with my C.Sharps.

***********

Now, to move in a different direction on this topic, what goes into effectiveness of a bullet? Looking at a broad range of bullets, I have found a 62gr Speer, a full metal jacket, which has an exceptional Coefficent of .307 and a Sectional Density of .177. If I put this bullet on top of 10.0 (+) grains of Lil'Gun, I should get at least 2500 fps.

Looking at the Hornady .40gr V-MAX, a BT design, this little bullet will obviously get a much higher velocity and you would expect excellent accuracy. But this bullet only has a listed Coefficent of .200, well below the larger bullet.

Which bullet should have superior performance at 100 yds and what am I over looking?

That's OK- Number 19.

After discussing this with you here, I can see what you are trying to accomplish with your 1885 low wall hornet and you will have a lot of fun with it..