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I am. I'll be praying for all of you. May God reward us
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ad hom�i�nem (hom��-n�m�, -n�m) adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: "Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives." [Latin ad, to, + hominem, accusative of homo, man.] (American Heritage Dictionary)

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Just for the Campfire record (God knows already) �

I do not claim to be a teacher.

I do not want to be a teacher.

I regret that some here seem to think that I do.

I'm glad that some here see that I'm not.

I just want to be an obedient learner.

That's a full-time (plus) job for anybody!

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Ken,

"I just want to be an obedient learner.

That's a full-time (plus) job for anybody."

Amen, and Amen! 100% agreement. We should all be students, all our lives.

" He that has an ear , let him hear " .

Now , 30 30 man may come on here and point out that there is another meaning to that than the one I take , and that will be fine . It may add to my understanding ; it won't take away. I won't allow it.

When Jesus prefaced his remarks with that phrase , it seems to signify that The Spirit's task is to quicken the ear as well as guide the thoughts and the tongue . That's where I get my operative principle : If He can put the answer in you, He can put the question in me , and vice versa .

Teachers are made by students . If I don't have anybody learning ,I'm not a teacher. Pretty simple.

I've never seen a hunting campfire with a lectern . It is a place of sharing , where the teaching and learning both take place and there is no distinction between teachers and students .

Seems to work that way in the other groups around this fire .

I don't know who screwed up the printer to where it's runnin' plumb off the page . I reckon we can blame it on 'ol Don -what's his name.

Good thing for y'all that I can't type as fast as I think when one of y'all "inspires " me. THis computer - ably aided by God , probably - only allows me a certain amount of time to create a post, then it wipes out all I've written . [do I imagine cheers from some quarters?]

Anyhow,'ol Don - I was just warmin' up to him , too - quoted about folks not doing the will of the Father, reason being that they don't know it . Seems like the essence of His will was summed up pretty well in two commandments .

With that in mind - and knowin' I'm guilty of it ,too - ain't it in appropriate to be using that scripture as chastisement when folks dis agree about the jots and tittles?

Am I missing something?

Having established that I don't believe a particular "teacher " is required for my spiritual journey , I want to explain why I believe one IS REQUIRED for that portion of my journey that pertains to bible teachings. I really think some of you draw no distinction between the two and that is where we part company,but that's not what I want to tlk about in the limeted time my computer skills allow.

Here is what I require in a Teacher ,whether in ballistics or bible study:

A formal education sufficient to evaluate all different views and discard those that are wrong.

A high degree of intellectual honesty.

A passion to learn the subject.

A willingness to share his knowledge.

Even with my eighth grade education,I possess those qualities in sufficient measure to be called "teacher " by enough students to qualify.My area of expertise is very narrow,but extremely important TO A PRETTY SMALL SEGMENT OF HUMANITY.

While reading C.S. LEWIS , I used to yearn to ask him a question about some particular portion of the bible.He was dead by the time I heard of him.

Along comes Ken Howell into my life.[ Actually,we got off to a rocky start as some of you around when the fire was lit may recall ! ] Why on earth would I not avail myself of this modern Lewis who can answer my questions. Again,questions about THE BIBLE .

Just as I would not have agreed with Lewis on many things - I suspect from his writings he woulda been in the front ranks of PETA - I don't look to Ken to tell me when to turn left or right .On matters concerning scripture,I take his view ON FAITH .

That's why I appoint him to the highly exalted ,albeit unpaid,position of Gene's BIBLE TEACHER .The rest of you;"Eat your heart out ! " grin goes here.

As far as me being his " PIT BULL " as one poster implied;Neither the Spirit nor Ken teach " SIC 'EM ".
I do that all on my own.One of them things I learned in the beer joints that still comes in handy. Really it's just a little different form of " sharing ".

I can appreciate both divergent views concerning teaching:

Exegesis in the original languages,understanding jewish -middle-eastern idioms, culture, old covenant religion...types, shadows and symbolisms between the old covenant and the new covenant ...
From from the Tabernacle in the wilderness to the mercy seat on the ark in the Holy of Holies to the day the veil into the Holy of Holies was torn from TOP to bottom by the Holy Spirit signifying a new and LIVING Way was made for those to live and dwell-approach a most holy God thru Christ..
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Contrastingly, I also believe that while a better, fuller knowlege of all of that can be helpful and enlightening,the body of Christ( and the world in darkness) has been given-revealed ALL that is NEEDFUL to know in order that those in darkness might move into the Light..and those who come into the body of Christ as little children might grow to the measure, stature and fullness of Christ as a part of that Body of faithful.
Do we undertstand all, know all?No.

Has ALL been told us, revealed to us concerning the person and work of Christ Jesus? No.

The disciple-apostle John finished one of his writings with this statement below, indicating there was a whole lot more that Jesus did and said just during his earthly ministry which we have not had revealed to us:

John wrote as he was moved by the Holy Spirit as with all scripture so I have no reason to doubt him.

Jhn 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

While all of us have questions and some isolated scriptures which we have difficulty understanding...NONE of those stands in the way of our coming to know Christ, being born again of the Holy Spirit of YHWH, growing in grace and knowlege of our Lord and Savior YAHSHUA Messiah, walking in the Holy Spirit,fellowshipping with the body of believers or standing one day before our righteous and loving Father in heaven and being accepted into eternal life.
Between the indwelling Holy Spirit ( "he will lead you and guide you into all truth.."), the Holy Spirit and the Word, and the gifts and ministries Christ has placed in His church-body, how can we fail to know what we need to know?

Given the choice, I believe that the church as a worldwide group needs to get back to the first principles of the Gospel and to do the first works..love, joy, peace...well, you know what they are..jim

We need to avoid getting to wrapped up in labels. Labels are useful in a general sense. but they do not apply to every situation.

I think Ken is an excellent example of someone who leans more toward being a scholar than a teacher. Ken has always maintined he wanted to learn this stuff for himself. His motivation was to know.

I personally find I am drawn to learn so I can teach others as much as for my own understanding, which I believe defines the heart of a teacher. I see the scholar as being more of an authority on what is the right view, whereas the teacher conveys that view to others.

Once again, I think a true teacher does not teach with ego. He learns as much--if not more--from his students as the students learn from him. A teacher is willing to admit to being wrong. I find that I am more driven to ensure someone's approach to gaining understanding is more important than the specific conclusions they come too--except when it comes to the "key issues".

Having said that, I have no doubt Ken has been used much more as a teacher than I have. I don't think God isn't as concerned with labeling whether we are teacher, student, scholar, pastor, whatever as He is with our being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and being obedient to Him.

References have been made to learning by the Spirit vs learning by intellect. This is a good issue. Ultimately, our learning comes from God. The Spirit confirms the truth of what we discover through our intellect.

If God had chosen to reveal all things to all people, then this is all we would need. Intellectual study and Spirit confirmation. Many claim that is all they need now. I see it differently.

God did not choose to reveal everything to everyone. Further, he speaks to each of us in different ways. As such, we can never know we are 100% sure we have correctly heard from God. Now we can be very sure on many things, but our confidence cannot be perfect as long as we are imperfect beings living in an imperfect world.

This is where faith comes in. We must have faith that God has made provision for our uncertainty. I believe one way He has made provision is through using groups of believers, just as happened with the sending out of Paul and Barnabas in the early church. I'm sure most of us have been in groups of believers and sensed the Spirits leading, resulting in a strong consensus on a particular course of action. There is very little doubt when 7 or 8 or 200 peolple sense the same direction from God.

Another way God confirms His truth is through intellect and reasoning. If that same group of believers study a particular passage of scripture, and by using reasoning and intellect--often facilitated by a teacher or scholar, come to a consensus; that can also greatly reduce doubt. The consenus, just like the seemingly "more" spritual sensing of the Holy Spirit, is fully God's confirmation.

The big danger to all of us--especially when we are by ourselves--is mistaking God's leading for our own emotions. The intellect is a great tool to sort out the difference.

In 1968, I met a Christian family east of the mountains and enjoyed several hours of mutually edifying fellowship with 'em one weekend, in their church and in their home. (I'll call 'em by the name Levy here, though that wasn't their name.)

In 1869, my family and I moved to another state. We moved back to Montana � west of the mountains � in 1970.

In 1971, Christian friends in this area told me that my friends the Levys had moved west of the mountains. But nobody knew where.

"How did you know that they're friends of mine?"

"I've heard that they speak of you often."

Months later, someone said that he thought that the Levys had moved to a certain little Montana town � let's call it "Center" � but wasn't sure and knew nothing definite.

Some time later, driving along the highway, I noticed a road sign with an arrow indicating a road to "Center." On what I took to be a sudden impulse, I took that road to "Center." At the post office, I asked whether a Levy family lived in or near "Center."

"Yes. Drive west on that street out there and turn left at the substation. The Levys have the next ranch."

I followed the lady's directions and parked in the yard of the first ranch. I knocked on the door. Through the glass of the outside door and the door from the mud room into the kitchen, I could see about eight people sitting around the big kitchen table. Mrs Levy looked up, saw me outside the door, and with eyes wide exclaimed "Why, here he is now!"

After the greetings and pleasantries, she explained:

The visitors were representatives from a growing number of Christians who'd been under the influence of a big-name, self-anointed minister whom they'd been appalled to find was growing more and more undeniably false. From reading their own Bibles, they'd begun to see more and more contradictions between the scriptures and the doctrines that � up to then � they'd taken-in as if it were all soundly Biblical. "It is written" was beginning to overwash "I think" and "yea, believe ye thus-and-so."

They'd gone for help to every other minister in the valley, all of whom had refused "to get involved" (except to invite 'em to join their congregations). These worried Christians knew that the Levys had been active in a number of Christian movements east of the mountains and were widely acquainted with a number of Christian leaders.

"We need a teacher whom we know that we can depend on," they said. "Can you think of anyone whom we could ask to come teach us?"

Mrs Levy had just said that the best candidate whom she could think-of would be "Brother Ken Howell."

"But," she said, "he moved out of Montana a couple of years ago. I've heard that he moved back, but I don't know for sure, and I don't know where he is."

Knock! Knock! Knock!

"Why, here he is now!"

Thus began a great adventure in mutual edification. Bible questions from people in the group led me into deep study of scriptures and topics that I might not ever have thought to explore otherwise. Exegesis of those scriptures and topics resolved questions and confusions for us all. All of us were already born again, baptized, etc, but there was much more (when our fellowship began) that we didn't know or understand than there was as we progressed in our knowledge and understanding.

Fruit grew there � healings, deliverance from demons, and many other obvious works and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Everything that we learned emphasized the glory of God. Nothing that we learned exalted human ego but, to the contrary, increased our wonder and humility.

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All in a day's work for the Spirit ! [ can't help but marvel, though, can we ! ]

dude ....

Modern Christianity exposes us to all "flavors" of teachers, from the soundest to the sorriest. In fact, as Peter showed in Matthew 16, any man can speak as inspired by the Holy Spirit on one occasion (vv 13-17) �

"When Jesus came into the coasts of C�sarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven...."

� and as inspired by Satan soon afterward (vv 21-23):

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

A highly touted Christian teacher was coming to a retreat center near me, and the sponsor invited me to come spend a week In The Presence. I had a couple of the fellow's books, which seemed OK to me, so I went � eagerly looking forward to the experience.

The first half hour was great. He led a discussion on Genesis 2 and 3, and brought forth a number of insights that he could've gotten only from the Holy Spirit (fully supported by scripture, of course). Then he came to the matter of Eve sharing the forbidden fruit with Adam:

"So she went and looked-up Adam, wherever he was�"

I raised my hand.

"Ken?"

"Verse six says 'And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.' She didn't have to go look for him. He was right there with her."

"Oh, I know that it says that." (He actually sneered!) "But I think that he was off somewhere else, doing his own thing."

"It is written" has always trumped "I think" for me, but I said no more. I almost went home after that session, but the fellowship with other ministers was too sweet to miss, and I was curious to see what else the guy had to offer. So I stayed, listened, and watched.

Pretty soon, it became obvious that his wife operated him. As the week progressed, he went further and further haywire, and she ran more and more of the discussions, which got pretty weird at times. I kept my mouth shut and tried to keep my mind open, as "I think" continued to devastate "it is written."

As I was leaving to go home at the end of the last day, I went to him with a smile and outstretched hand to wish him well and farewell. He ignored my hand and scolded me loudly and viciously for coming to him in the middle of a game of horseshoes.

You're right on! if you figure that I saw neither Jesus nor Peter in that show of mood. And very little indication of the Holy Spirit for the entire week.


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Well said!

I used to sit, Sunday after Sunday, in an adults' Sunday-school class that was led (not taught!) by a sweet old dear who read a passage from the Bible and then asked repeatedly "Anybody got any ideas on that?" One Sunday, I heard Another Voice say in my head "Ken, get My opinion ..."

So I really appreciated this story that I heard later:

A black Brother in Mississippi dearly loved the Lord and His believers but had no one nearby to fellowship with. He knew that he wouldn't be welcome in the only nearby church � whites-only Southern Baptist, the way I heard the story � but he went over there for every service anyway.

He'd hide in the brush until everybody was inside, then he'd sit below a window, from where he followed the scripture-readings in his Bible, heard the sermons, and sang the hymns along with those inside � always wishing, of course, that he could enjoy closer fellowship with those inside.

One Sunday, he felt an arm across his shoulders and looked up to find that Jesus was sitting beside him.

"Don't fret it," Jesus said. "I've tried to get into that place ever since they built it."

One of the chaplains at the proving ground was an ardent admirer of Robert Schuler and wanted to rase the chapel and build a new one � all-glass � patterned after the Crystal Cathedral. Fortunately, the Army wouldn't let him do that.

As the next-best thing, he junked the beautiful carved-oak double doors and replaced 'em with glass doors. The next Sunday, he was out front in his Schuler robe (the only time he was ever out there greeting people as we arrived) making sure that we all noticed his fine, new glass doors.

"Great, Gale!" I said. "Now God can see in."

Carol Anne elbowed me in the ribs and almost managed to kill her grin. She'd heard about the black Brother in Mississippi and knew what had inspired my remark, which sailed right over Gale's head.

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Ken,
You have some wonderful recollections. Thank you for sharing them.

Rick

I pray that the Holy Spirit will give wisdom and discernment to all who read these posts. Many are very sad. Others are simply wrong. Still, we can glean from this if we are dilligent. This post is not meant as a reply to any specific post, but a continuing comment based upon the entire post so far.

While many say today that truth is different for different people, they are wrong in light of the Bible. Truth IS absolute and is the same for every one, though we may each take a different path to get to the truth. And as some have said, the Holy Spirit is our main teacher. Certainly we should learn as much as we can from wise and accepted teachers, but always hold their words up to the light of scripture and the yearning of the Spirit within us.

The Bible tells us of many who claimed to be teachers who were instead snares of the devil. As someone has stated in this thread, those who spout the loudest about their experience and training, and are most offended when others do not accept their words are usually the wrong ones to listen to, though I firmly believe we can learn something from any message, if we are tuned in to the Spirit, and not the person speaking.

As Paul told Timothy to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2nd Tim. 2:15), so we must heed this warning also. Those who blindly follow a person (any person) without holding that person to the standard of the Word that they have studied for themselves are on a slippery slope to error. God tells us we who are saved are priests (Rev. 1:6) and need only the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scripture, for it is not open to private interpretation (2nd Peter 1:6). Indeed, neither the Bible in it's entirity or an individual verse can be understood rightly in the flesh, whether from a teacher or by reading it ourselves. It must be interpreted by the Holy Spirit to us through our spirit.

It is important to remember that we are beings of multiple parts, spirit, soul and body (1st Thes. 5:23). Each are a part of us, and each must be included in just about everything we do or are. The Word is either read or heard through the eyes or ears (body) and comes to our mind (soul), then is interpreted by the Holy Spirit through our spirits. Teachers are good, if Godly, but cannot take the place of the Interpreter.

Examples without an obvious Biblical reference are like physical exercise the "profiteth little" (1st Tim. 4:8). If done without love it "profiteth nothing" (1st Cor. 13:3). This is where Christ demonstrated Himself to be the best teacher who has ever walked the planet. The proof IS in the pudding, as someone mentioned, when it comes to Christ. The last 2000+ years demonstrates it quite well, but so do His works while He was here. Certainly, what He did, He did for love.

Someone used the term "Religious people" earlier. Religious people tend to put those they consider "great teachers" on pedistals. This is probably the most dangerous thing that Christians can do. We are on dangerous ground here, and have been for some time. This won't come as a surprise to many who have read my previous posts, but I do not consider my self a religous man, merely a man of faith and one saved by the grace of God.

After giving it much thought, I think it best to follow Paul's lead when talking to people of unknown backgrounds and be determined to know nothing but Christ, and Him crucified. After all, it is not my or anyone's job to be a priest to anyone, but to simply give the gospel and pray.

You know,Sanlen, I agree with you. The truth is the truth regardless of who speaks it.

If Jesus had never delivered the Sermon on the Mount , and we turned on Fox News tomorrow to see Osama Bin Laden saying it word for word , it would be the truth.

Right ?

That's one of the problems we have as mere flesh. Satan says a lot of the truth mingled with his lies.

Then people interpret it the way they see fit instead of depending on the Holy Spirit.

That's not the way I believe.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJV

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth : thy word is truth . KJV

Jesus is the truth and His Word is truth. If it is in His Word it is truth. If it's not to be found in His Word, then it cannot be regarded as truth.

If Christ had not given the Kingdom of Heaven to the poor in spirit, or the earth to the meek, could a man have done it? And at that, one who serves Satan? No!