Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .44 mag. Hardcast Ammunition Advise

Hi,

I'm hoping for advise from some of you folks that may have experience using heavy .44 mag Hard Cast ammo. The ammo I'd like will be flat point in the 300 - 320 grain bullet size. The handgun I'll be carrying these in is a S&W 629 w/ 6" barrel. The purpose is for self defense, in the rare case that a large and furry creature in Alaska decides it's really PO'ed at me. Sort of a last resort option, needless to say.

I've Googled around a bit and found some manufacturers that I'm familiar with and some others not too much. The names that have come up so far are:

Garretts
Federal
Cor-Bon
Buffalo Bore
Double Tap

Hoping to hear from folks who may be familar with some of these cartidges. Might any of you folks have an opinion as to which you like best?

I haven't tracked down all the ballistics info on each of the cartridges yet, but here's some sample info from Garrett's for example, http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44defendertech.html


Lastly, am I right in thinking that it's maximum ft.lbs. of energy that going to determine stopping power? Max range in this scenario is probably 50' with time for 1-2 shots in a charge situation. Garrett's has an interesting viewpoint on this. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html


Thanks for any advise you'ld like to throw this way.

- Jay

Forget muzzle energy figures. They are a poor measurement of lethality. I have used ammo from most of the manufacturers you listed, with much success out of my .44s. One I really like a lot is Double Tap's 320 grain WFN. They are priced right, accurate (out of my guns at least), and I have taken a number of wild hogs with that load and it is really effective.

Most any of those loads ought to do as well as you can expect from a .44 magnum. The hard part is being able to do the job yourself. Like Whitworth says, muzzle energy really doesn't tell you anything. At the ranges you're likely to encounter a bear, you want a wide meplat, moderate velocity and a heavy bullet.

i've used the garrets with good succes and seen good results from doubletap

The heaviest load you can "control". Start an old car tire down a steep hill at 50 feet & see how many times you can hit it....put a fur coat over it for a few goose bumps! If you hit it twice you are very good!

Dick

You are asking for a failure with that heavy of a boolit from a S&W. The gun can not take the recoil without some damage. The cylinder can also rotate when the cylinder latch unlocks it from inertia and the next needed shot goes "click."
My suggestion is to not go over a 265 gr boolit.
If you want heavy boolits, go to a Ruger.

I wouldn't feed my Smith a steady diet of them, but in limited use, it should be fine. I used that 320 grain load in my -3 as well as my brother-in-law's 629 without a hitch.

Can ya shoot worth a schit?

If so, put any of those hardcasts in the CNS (actually, all of them would be better), and don't fret the rest.

If ya can't shoot worth a schit, none of it matters.

Now think back! I seem to remember many "clicks" with your gun and the time we could not open the cylinder from the unlocking pin getting peened. Seems as if I had to use a dowel and hammer to open the cylinder, then take it apart to fix the pin.
We shot very few of the heavy boolits before trouble.
Limited use would be about 4 shots before repair. Just sighting the gun will set a guy up for failure with a bear.
I will not be involved in this. The S&W can not take extreme recoil and nobody can say it is after 2 shots or 50.
I am not fooling anyone. your life can be on the line, don't shoot heavy boolits from the .44 S&W.

That was after a pretty extensive session and that poor Model 29 has been to hell and back -- I have not been kind to it over the years. That was the second time that happened in more than 2o years of abuse, er use. That said, a limited diet should be fine in his 629.

These two look good for a controllable yet powerful load that won't abuse your 629 during the practice sessions:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=55

seems like a good reason to shoot a ruger or dan wesson over a smith

Most definitely -- LOL!

A S&W made during the Bangor Punta Corporation will be more prone to this than anyother time period. The new S&W's are supossed to be able to take the heavy recoil

I was given a boat load of Randy Garrets ammo when he first went into business. I was the Wildlife manger for Weyerhaeuser at the time. My primary responsibility was bear damage control. I was removing lots of bears during this time so we have plenty of testing possibility. Shooting any animal while wandering around and eating is a completely different thing then shooting an adrenaline pumping bear with violent intent. When I would walk in upon a bear that was snared by the foot the excitement level usually exceeded my comfort zone. These bears were snared by the foot with the other cable end on a log about 5-6 foot long and 8-12" diameter. This way they could pull the log around and not pull the paw out of the snare.

However this gave them 10 foot of running and momentum buildup when they saw you. This log was also dragged or even jerked off the ground pretty easy at times. So now that you have the set up for the scenario I'll tell you how the various ammo worked from my two different 44 mags.

First the 300 grain Garrett was amazing accurate and had a recoil that would knock your socks off out of the SW mtn gun 4" barrel. In the 7.5" redhawk is was comfortable. I do not beleive that a steady diet of those loads in the S&W would have been a good idea. I don't believe that my hands or my S&W would handle the constant pounding those loads provide.

The problem for me was the Mtn gun is the best 44 mag I've ever packed around in my life. Light smooth accurate and very easy to carry. The Redhawk was huge, heavy and often left behind, or carried in such a way I would never have gotten it out in time to use it. This actually happened to me, when I was hit from behind by a 210 lb 2.5 year old male bear and bitten and chewed all the while my redhawk was shouldered under my coat and useless to me.

When the bears would see me walking in towards them 7 of ten would bolt away from me until the cable ran out. Then growl and paw the ground until they felt they had a clear bead on me and then come for me like lightening. When I would shoot them thru the body with the hard cast bullets then just kept coming as if I missed them. Some smaller bears would fall and roll around bawling like you can't believe, others would just drop and roll and get right back up, most of those had a broken bone in the leg/legs. Head shots were almost never attempted as the bobbing and weaving bears head was a near impossible target at the speed and intensity of the moment.

I handloaded a 240 grain XTP bullet at 1250fps. When the bears were hit with these bullets under the same conditions, 100% crumpled and rolled. 100% stopped charging and started chewing on the point of entry where the bullet hit them in the body. Every single one stopped and assessed the situation instantly.

The Hard cast bullet zipped clean thru and may actually still be going for all I know. At the time these Heavy hard cast bullets came out they were all the rage and many folks used them to kill game far exceeding anything thought possible with a handgun. For that size and type of game they are a flawless choice. When you want to shoot a Bison, water buffalo, moose, elk, large male wild hogs, Penetration is the absolute need for these huge animals. However for a bear, black bear specific I would choose a 240 grain hollow point like the XTP every time having seen the reaction on many dozens of bears using both.

Brown/grizzly is a different story. They can be 1000 lbs. You wanna have a lot of penetration and bone breaking. To use the 300-320 grain bullets Randy loads I would suggest the biggest strongest revolver you can get. They are functional in the S&W but not practical. That light weight revolver is no match for continuous use with them.

Most important, if you really think there will be a problem where you're going, you need to have the gun in your hand or in a holster outside your coat. If it's under your coat, leave it at home, and don't go to that place without a shotgun or rifle. I was hit and chewed because of this exact situation. Gun under the coat, no way to get it out in time, or after the attack began.

I would also suggest Stainless Steel only. Blued guns rust over night in the wet PNW climate and in Alaska. Even my SS revolvers had an orange haze over them from the constant wetness. Another suggestion is a formed injection molded holster. A leather holster will be soggy wet and accelerate rust and increase the weight. Guns don't slide out of a wet holster very easy either at times.

Good luck

Maybe this is obvious and I'm a little slow. But did you ever have a chance to figure out what was getting their attention? Was it the entry wound size? Or was it just the wound channel in general?

Federal 300gn. Cast-Cores, got a bud in Texas thats been puttin' that load thru hogs for 20 yrs at least IIRC.

Gunner

That bullet will put a real hurt on an animal.
The problem is that they lack penetration and an animal like a deer that will run off can lack a blood trail.
I would prefer the 300 gr XTP.

They were biting and trying to stop the "burning perforation" that they felt, I always thought it was similar to the way they react to hornets or wasps stinging them.

In any case, this common situation stopped them quickly allowing for another follow up shot, or 5

Everyone has opinions on these things, fair enough. Just speaking from my experience, shooting them with a hard cast bullet that zipped through did not have the slowing or stopping effect that the soft point, hollow points did. The Hard cast bullets caused a nearly identical reaction to an arrow with a broadhead. They just zip thru without much impact. Where the hollow points driven as fast as functionally possible had a decisive stunning effect.

In regards to the 300gr XTP. They have to be driven faster then realistic to have much expansion. I shot probably 100 animals with them during development and the few recovered bullets had marginal expansion. They would be great from Lever gun, or the bigger Ruger 7.5" barrel redhawk. From the 4" barrel S&W they were not getting the velocity needed to be any different then the hard cast bullets.
This was one of the posters Hornady used during the release of the XTP bullets after our testing

Smith and Wesson M29's can't take heavy bullets ? I doubt that. I have a Smith 29 that I bought in 1967. I'm certain it's had 8000-10,000 rds. through it. 90% of that full power, 250 gr. bullets..... double action to boot.
You need a heavier bullet than the standard 240 swagged factory stuff ? Who says so ? Elmer Keith didn't seem to think so. He killed several big beef bulls with the factory 240 gr. swagged lead ammo. Shot right throught their face plates. Seem to recall he knew something about bears and other troublesome critters in his day.
What I have seen is the powder happy crowd break a few Smiths. They manage to break a few Rugers too. Simply not necessary. E