Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats TOP GUNSMITHS in CANADA

I think he means at least two people on this thread don't know jack, yet challenge statements made by others who obviously have some experience.

By your response, I guess it's easy to tell which group you align yourself with...

I do not have to justify my opinions or detail my personal experience to you or anyone else; you have already falsely accused me of making comments that I did not make on this thread, so, you might want to reconsider your remarks, or, simply confine them to the issue at hand.

As to attempts to make oneself feel important, that is an all too commonplace situation with many of your colleagues, especially those just out from Regina, so, maybe you are somewhat confused with respect to the difference between honest opinion based on real experience and ad hominem bullschitt of the sort you just posted. In any case, I have better things to do than waste time with this sort of nonsense.

BTW, why don't you give Dave Mathiesen a quick call and ask him about my level of actual experience with rifles?

What's with you? The original posting in this thread asked "who you think qualifies in the TOP 5."

You choose not to state who might qualify, but rather make negative comments about various people. These comments were not asked for. What started out as a decent thread is gone.

I notice you did the same type of negative posting on the thread about Top Gunsmiths in the USA.

And you choose not to answer my question about defining the qualifications of "Top Gunsmith".

Talk about a waste of time!

Are you being deliberately obtuse or simply trying to stir up trouble? I very carefully stated what I have seen here with a number of gunsmiths, yet, you ignore this and keep trying to instigate an unpleasant exchange....maybe you are a troll?

What is with me, is that I posted honest opinions based on actual hands-on experience with the rifles/makers that I refered to; I did NOT make any negative remarks about anyone's character, simply commented on gunmaking skills as shown by results. But, you obviously know so much more than I do, so, maybe you could tell me exactly what the major obvious differences between the Dakota 76 and the P-64 Mod. 70 actions are as you must own examples of these??? How about what one notices in a Champlin when the trigger adjustment is not correctly set, this is, as you surely know, a real easy thing to spot.

If, you want to get into very precise, technical detail on "top" gunsmithing, I'm your man, so, correctly answer these questions and then we can go from here. What, btw, is a "swamped" barrel and why would a custom 'smith use this???

If, you want to get into very precise, technical detail on "top" gunsmithing, I'm you man, so, correctly answer these questions and then we can go from here. What, btw, is a "swamped" barrel and why would a custom 'smith use this???

I don't know what btw is.

"swamped barrel" ...
I guess I would describe it as a barrel diameter larger at the muzzle and I guess a custom smith would do that if his customer wanted it. He may want it done for better balance.

But I don't really care if you answer anything. You are rather boring.

I would like to hear from others though.

Mr. Catnthehat Guncraft -Calgary -Alberta many years ago. About the only thing on BR.com that gets hammered regulary is Leupold and......
Glenn

OOPS! Gunco was his conpany, likely!
I remember Guncraft now.

IMHO the "top 5 " alla round gunsmiths would likely not be buildiing comp rifles of any kind, as the level of metalwork needed to win a match is incredible, but the stockwork is in a different category.
I am sure Kutenay's idea of a well made stock (and mine ) is quite different from a BR looney's idea of perfect!

Mcphee and rangesports unlimited build top notch DCRA/Palma rifles, and Ron Smith is known as a shuetzen rifle builder and BPCR guy.
Still otheers do wonderous work on service rifles.
In the end however, I think you will find that most are specializing in one type of competition rifle and do not do too much old time custom building in wood and fancy engraving, etc.

But that is just my opinion and may not be the same as others.
I do know that when I ask Paul at rangesports to put together a rifle that will get the job done for me at 1,000 meters plus, he delivers the goods with prompt service.....

Nuff said....
Cat

Cat, I have had quite a number of pleasant exchanges of views on this forum with you during the past couple of years, so, I am going to consider your misspelling of my "handle" to be a mistake, rather then a deliberate insult. If, this is the case, perhaps you would edit your post?

Goat, you are wrong concerning what a "swamped" barrel is, just as I expected you would be; however, since I bore you, due no doubt to your extraordinary knowledge of gunsmithing, let's just ignore one another. This forum is much different than CGN and is a gathering place where there are many very knowledgable folks whose posts we can all learn from....as my previous posts on this thread indicated. I have already given examples of who/what I consider to be "top' gunsmithing and have no further inclination to pursue this as I hesitate to bore a real expert.

BTW=by the way.

ok ok enough of the bickering guys, show some respect and courtesy. Since we are supposed to be talking about the top canadian gunsmiths how about you guys give some real useful information like their contact information, what are some addresses and phone numbers. this post is going nowhere. lol

Thanks

Aw come on, what's a good gungabfest without a little verbal asskicking??? But, you are right, too many valuable threads on gun forums do turn into schittslinging contests, so, I will offer some further info.

The best place that I know of to obtain contact info. concerning Canadian gunsmiths is "Access to Firearms" where quite a number of them advertise. Word of mouth ( in person) is also a sound source of advice, but, it will be frequently based on one person's opinion and their desires regarding a given rifle or type thereof; this is essentially what is happening on this thread. These forums are really nothing other than opinion and some people have more experience than others, but, none of us are infallible, me included.

In Canada, at present, I would pick the following guys as the "top" five, for anyone interested. They are Martini & Hagn, Bill Leeper, Mick McPhee and probably Bill Warkentin, BUT, my criteria may well be different than that of others, as Cat indicated today and I did some days ago.

Even these guys produce some rifles that are obviously better than others, as every custom producer of whatever does and the good ones will admit. The legendary Al Biesen of Spokane, Wa, USA, has quite openly admitted this and mentioned that many of the younger, upcoming gunmakers are now doing work much superior to that he did some 40-50 years ago when in his prime.....and he also states that this is the way it should be as the art advances based on smith's learning from each other.

Again, I think that the custom rifle craft in Canada is largely a dying trade/art as demographics, social mores and economic opportunities have changed this country to a degree that we could have hardly imagined in the '60s when I got into this obsession. I do not expect to ever see a gunsmithing community in Canada that is equal to the ACGA in the USA, although I would love to be proven wrong.

I said, "I guess I would describe it as a barrel diameter larger at the muzzle and I guess a custom smith would do that if his customer wanted it. He may want it done for better balance."

According to George Shumway:
Tapered-and-flared barrels or swamped barrels are largest at the breech, and taper to a minimum diameter 6 to 10 inches from the muzzle, then flare out somewhat to the muzzle . Barrels of this type not only balance the best in a rifle but they also look the best. German flintlock rifles of the 18th century almost always had barrels of this type. The flare or the enlargement at the muzzle is aesthetically pleasing, it provides a higher base for the front sight than a straight tapered barrel would provide and it adds a little mass at the end of the barrel, which is an aid in shooting.
(Recreating the American Longrifle 1970 - by George Shumway )

Amusing post fellas, I have learned a lot in the last few pages <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think we all have our own ideas regarding what constitutes a "Gunsmith".

While my fibreglass/stainless mtn rifles differ greatly from the wood stocked, deeply rich blued customs Kutenay so loves, I think our ideas of workmanship and what constitutes good "gunsmithing" are similar.

There are a Canadian "smiths" that will NEVER see one of my rifles due to their shoddy workmanship.

There are a few Canadian "smiths" that will not get my business because I refuse to wait 2 years to get my rifle built.

I think where people often fail in having a custom rifle built is in the planning stage. Many want to just hand over a blank cheque and pick up a rifle when it is done, all by one smith.

Not too many single mechanics will rebuild tranny's, starters, do the body work, install the stereo, mount/balance the tires, and test drive your 66 mustang for you.

Similarily, I don't expect any single "smith" to build my barrel, true my action, install the tube, do PERFECT stockwork, bed/paint it, and then skeletonize the action, mount the scope and send me a sighted in rifle with tailored handloads.

My approach involves using specialized folks to do what they do best, and source out what they don't do "best" to those who can.

Undboutedly, when I want a perfect tube put on stright, with action work that can't be topped.... my rifles go to Ted Gaillard (Gaillard Precision).

He has twisted up 3 7-08AI lightweights in the last few years for me and a pard that are absolutely phenominal!

I've got a few King barrels that are scary accurate as well.

The rest is subjective (stockwork, blueing....)...... get it done where ya like, it depends on your level of "Analness".

Others that would get my business in a heartbeat:

-Mic McPhee
-Knobby Uno
-Ron Smith
-Bevan King
-Rob McLennan
-Rembo

Notice a trend? 3 of the 5 I just mentioned and Ted Gaillard........ All build their own barrels. My theory is that if you can put a straight hole in a 26" piece of tube, you have the skills to easily twist a tube on my action!!!! Hasn't let me down yet.

Canada has an unbelievable amount of talent w/regards to the rifle craft if one knows where to look and how to go about it. Sure names like Echols et al are not running abound, but EVERY custom I own spots a Canadian made tube twisted up by a Canadian "Smith", and I am damn impressed with the lot, and all the synthetic stocks are of Canuk Manufacture as well.

We have it good, and don't forget it.......

Having said that, there are a few morons that claim to be "Gunsmiths", and I will gladly let anybody know of them in a PM. I'd hazard a guess that our friends to the south have a few of these so called "smiths" as well.... I'm sure a Charlie Sisk and Mickey Coleman don't reside on every street corner in the USA.

NOW LET US ALL GET ALONG AND TAKE OFF THE CAPS LOCK <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

280_ACKLEY

I guess my next response would be that if it is turning into a dying breed up here in Canada, is there not anyone that anyone is aware of in Canada that has approached these top smiths wanting to learn the trade? I hear that it is not something that one could make a living off of but if one became that good why couldn't he or she? I have heard that Bill Leeper is not taking on any more at this present time as he is so backlogged. I would hope that his entire time is devoted to making guns if he is that busy. I know that if I could do it over, the way that I would have gone was machinist so I could learn the ins and outs of working with metal so that one day I could turn out some guns that everyone would want. I am beginning to see that not one person can do it all but it takes a team in reality to turn out a fine piece. If one could do the whole gammut I would say that the person doing the work is one hell of an artist at his trade. I guess then that person could be labelled a top gunsmith in Canada, he can do it all from start to finish. He would require the knowledge of working with metal, wood, and plastics something that could take an undetermined amount of time. My feelings are in general that it is a team effort to turn out a remarkable product.


Calvin

To the question of top gunsmith, that needs to first be clarified by what considers a top notch rifle. For bolt action rifles, there seem to be two main catagories of rifles being built these days. The more modern catagory is what I'll call the tactical rifle, this is likely a Rem 700 action that has been blueprinted, ie squared and trued, and a barrel is fit to it, then it is bedded into a synthetic stock. The metal finish is likely some sort of industrial finish, and the trigger is maybe swapped out with a Jewel or the like. Not to denegrate the folks making those sort of rifles, but they really don't require a true gunsmith to craft, they are more the work of a machinist/mechanic, ie someone that dials in the lathe and bolts on swaps out parts.

The other type of rifle is the classic hunting rifle, typically built on a mauser 98 or Win model 70, wood stocked, nicely blued and perhaps a bit of fiddling on the magazine/feed rails. This requires not only the machinist to fit the barrel to the action, but also a true gunsmith for hand fitting of metal to metal, and metal to wood. There are both darn few of such folks capable of such work as well as customers that appreciate what it takes to do such work. I'd venture to say while many of those building fine classic hunting rifles are also duly capable of making highly accurate tactical/target guns, the reverse is not true.

My two cents.

That statement is worth its weight in gold if every letter in it weighed a pound. I'll take it for the 2 pennies, and call it money well spent.

Chuck

The comment concerning a "swamped" barrel was inaccurate in that it simply stated that such a barrel was ...larger at the muzzle...and that is true of a number of barrel configurations while NOT being always true of swamped barrels. I do wonder why the poster did not simply quote his source in his initial post directed at me, perhaps he was not so sure of his "facts" as he wants to appear?

A "swamped" barrel is one in which the contour of said barrel diminishes in a very slight elliptical form from a set point on the barrel reinforce/chamber area to a minimal diameter near to or usually slightly forward of the barrel mid-point. This is done for three major reasons, the first of which is to give a superior sight picture with irons sights or on a sxs shotgun with a "swamped" rib, the second is to lower over-all weight as in a muzzle loader and the third is to determine balance.

Before I started using synthetic stocks in 1985 and learned to do my own bedding, with advice from Noburo Uno, Tibor Wrabec and a couple of other Vancouver smiths who have done a lot of work for me; I used to use primarily wood stocked rifles and I wanted them as light as possible because we did not have quads or horses and packed our game out on Trapper Nelson torture racks. There were firms in the USA who made light rifles with swamped barrels as they felt that such profiles would give greater accuracy, the most well known of these was Taylor & Robbins and this was fairly commonplace until the age of plastics took over.

Certain of my posts on this thread refer to the detailed micro-precision that is fundamental to good gunsmithing and being able to tell a person who questions one about the exact details of a given action of rifle type without first refering to a book is, IMO, an indication that the poster doing so actually knows whereof he speaks. Those who substitute ad hominem comments for technically correct commentary simply demonstrate that they are not as knowledgable as they want others to believe and thus I question their ability to really tell the good smithing from the poor.

Also, my comment re: Dennis Sorenson was based on my three conversations with him concerning the action work I wanted done on a P-14, some Mauser 98 modifications and possible stockwork. He informed me that he could not do the work I wanted and really prefered working on Remington 700 actions, as does Nobby Uno. Fine, but, a "topnotch" riflesmith should be able to perform mods. on a Mauser 98, it is the basis for almost all of the bolt guns we use today. My idea of top workmanship in rifles is based on Hagn's singleshots and custom bolt rifles from major US makers; no insult to Sorensen, but, the work of his that I have seen is not quite in that class, hence, my stated opinion.

So sorry Sir!
Posting without my "readers" on again!
Swamped barrels hardly are the crteria of modern centerfire rifles, are they?
If we were tslking about BP muzzle loaders maybe....
Cat

For one to be considered a top notch smith must he have to work on all makes and models of actions? I feel it is not so. People have the ability to specialize in whatever field they want. Because one chooses one type over another may not make him a bad smith. It is ones perogative. One chooses such as it is there preference. Just as I will probably never be seen behind the wheel of a Chevy. If a probably talked to the wrong person they would think I am nuts that I prefer a wood stock over synthetic. I remember one of the first things that was told to me when I was displeased with my Rem 700 22-250 " throw that wood stock out and get a HS Precision" Would it have made a huge difference? Possibly but I highly doubt it. It is far cheaper to get it bedded than buy a stock then get it bedded. The bottom line is putting together a gun is like building a car. Some prefer these parts and others prefer those parts. What we need to do as individuals is to seek out who we feel is going to do what we want to get the end result we want. I think 99% of people would rather go to a gunsmith that prefers working on a action that they like than just saying yes I will do it but it is not my choice to work on. When will it be ready? not sure....... I think that is what may be going on out there. Biting off more than one can chew. We have to remember what we are looking for. A true benchrest gun versus a accurized action, a custom built hunting rifle versus a accurised hunting rifle, versus a custom hunting rifle with engraved stock and metal. There are different aspects to each but the one thing that is the same for all. If the smith cannot cut a chamber or crown it ain't going to shoot worth.................. What good is a couple or more thousand dollar gun if it cannot shoot? Not much in my books. You sell it to the poor sucker 1000 miles away.


Calvin

Well, I do annd don't agree with both Cat and Pot, in the first instance, the use of swamped barrels is still very much a part of contemporary gunmaking, as in very high end shotguns and to a lesser extent, in quite a number of c.f. and r.f. rifles. The whole point of this technique is that it be completely unobtrusive, it is a cosmetic adaptation to a certain gunsmithing challenge....to see what I mean, try to find older gunwritings by Warren Page, former gunguru of Field & Stream. A smith can attain the same balance, weight and overall feel with a number of barrel contouring methods, but, "swamping" simply looks better to most people.

I honestly think that a topnotch gunsmith should be able to do first rate work on pretty much any gun, especially action types as closely related as Rem. 700 and Mauser 98 rifles. IF, one smith chooses to specialize, that is entirely different, but, a certain level of overall knowledge and competence is fundamental to this issue, IMHO. I can and have done very sound bedding which allows my well-used rifles to shoot very well, but, I have never and would not try to install a barrel.

Again, we do have different needs and what I find absolutely essential is not what another shooter may deem equally important, however, really fine gunmaking simply stands out and is very obvious to the beholder....take a look at an English or Belgian shotgun, even a boxlock, made from about 1880 to 1939 and you can just see the quality....that's gunmaking, to me.

The criteria for a Gunsmith varies considerably. That is obvious. I have some of my own and am pretty opinionated about it.

I use rifles to hunt with so they must meet the demands associated with this qualifier. It must function properly, point where you aim, and group well enough with hunting bullets to hit game at any reasonable hunting distance. Wood stocks are nice and one that is properly done will function just fine for most hunting purposes. Myself, I prefer synthetic handles. Engraving has no place on my rifles and you will look long and hard to find a "complete" gunsmith that is any good at it.

I've had more rifles that have come from gunsmiths that didn't meet this criteria than those that did which is unfortunate. Because of this I've a rather jaded view of a lot of gun plumbers. For my money and wants, Bill Leeper is the best in this Country. There is a reason he's so backlogged, and what he does with his time is his business.

The remainder of my rifles, if politics allow, will be built by D'Arcy Echols. He is, in my mind, the best complete riflebuilder in North America. Quite possibly the world. He is an artisin in both wood and metal and has built rifles on 700's, 70's, 98's, Dakota's, Hagn single shots, Modern Mausers............... I've seen examples of most of these, and there isn't any room for wanting. He build's the complete rifle excepting the barrel and the finished rifle is 110% when the customer takes possession. This includes barrel break in, initial load development, scope mounting etc.......... You pay for it, but in my eyes it's worth it. Especially considering it's built to last beyond my lifetime.

Chuck