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if only they didn't store their spent fuel rods in a pool outside the containment structure.
I'd have no problem with a nuke plant 20 miles from my place.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Or create another Berkely Pit.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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That about sums up why I'm somewhat sadly against nuclear power. At the end of the day, try as we might and as clever as our "smart people" might be, it amounts to a species trying to McGyver a way to use a substance that is incredibly toxic- right down to the genetic level- to that species.
And as it gets floated out there that the endgame in Japan may be to just bury the mess under sand and concrete for the rest of human history, hoping for the best, while lord only knows what happens to future ground and seawater and so on... it becomes painfully obvious that this is NOT a technology we have a handle on.
Guys I'm a techno-geek, a sci-fi lover, a believer in the power of technology. I also believe that greenhouse gasses are f*ucking things up, and nuclear power generation is clean and green in that regard. I WANT to like it.
But I didn't before this latest example of just how fundamentally unable we are to truly control this process. I am that much less inclined to believe the "just trust us!" guys now.
Curious if this accident has changed anyone's minds about nuclear power. Also, for those pro-nuke, would you accept a plant 20 miles away from your home?
I live with one about fifty miles from me, as the crow flies. Unfortunately, I am mainly east of it. I have never liked it there. I am neither pro nor anti nuke at this point. I had been about convinced that we needed more of the things before this incident. I have a wait-and-see attitude now. So in a sense, it has made me think more about the issue. I don't know if "changed your mind" is the most appropriate description of what I think. As to Toot's assertion that not having them will cause energy costs to rise, the last I knew, the one close to me had never paid for itself. It's been there probably nearly forty years. I'd need to know more about how the technology has advanced and differs from the Jap meltdown. Then again, I think both sides are so emotionally invested in their own arguments as to be untrustworthy. You see it here even. This will either be ignored or spin downward into a flaming pissing insanity contest. Take it offline and mothball it. Then see what you pay on fuel surcharges. Awe...horse shixt.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Point taken, but a "fire"-fired <grin> power plant doesn't have the toxicity and long-term potential to basically destroy areas that are geological in scale, for amounts of time also geological in scale.
Put another way, a fire-fired power plant 25 miles from my house wouldn't make me happy, but contrast that with a nuke plant going in 25 miles away... I'd much rather live 25 miles from a nice nuclear plant than a coal fired one. As far as immediate danger, do you have any idea how many people die every year producing the coal and natural gas to fire non-nuclear power plants? And as far as long term health effects, compare the death toll from US nuclear plants (that would be zero) to the health effects on those downwind of coal fired plants. What are the health effects? Got any stats or a site? I live about fifty miles south of a major coal fired plant with another one about sixty miles southeast of me. Due east of the north one lay Jeff City and Columbia. Eventually, St. Louis is over there. A nuke accident would eventually get to those places if it was catastrophic, say the New Madrid fault. What would happen to a Coal Plant?
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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What ever happen to the clean atomic power fission?
Time spent hunting is not deducted from one's lifetime.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm pretty sure that Trojan was, in the end, with decommissioning costs factored in, a total financial BUST for everyone involved.
Put it this way- since I'm still paying for it, and will be for the foreseeable future, it's awfully hard to see it as anything but.
Someone asked what energy I do support. That's a tough one. Reality is, we need energy, and LOTS of it. It seems to me we are stuck with fossil fuels as the backbone of our energy infrastructure for as far out as we can reasonably see, and the consequences of that will be what they will be.
One idea that makes a lot of sense, in some areas anyway, is roofs shingled with solar shingles. A sunny, densely populated area like California could do well with this- I've read.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,411
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Geothermal works well where you can access it.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What's more dangerous, nuclear power or financing our own demise by funding terrorists throughout the middle east? Besides, the plants in question in Japan were built 40 years ago. Our technology is a tad better now.
"Hey jackass, get your government off my freedom."
MOLON LABE
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That and some folks pencil whipped some inspections on safety valves.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
What's more dangerous, nuclear power or financing our own demise by funding terrorists throughout the middle east? . Another good point. I'd answer, "ideally, neither", but I'd concede that the answer is unrealistic as things currently stand.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
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What sources of energy do you support? Please don't say wind and solar. Pixie dust and Unicorn milk? 
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What sources of energy do you support? Please don't say wind and solar. Pixie dust and Unicorn milk? The fuels of liberals dreams. Build reactors, lots of them. One single good design that is modern and uses lots less fuel than the sixties designs we have for them most part today. Since it's one design a far larger range of contingencies can be planned for, training will be greatly simplified and we will get very efficient at all aspects of planning, building and operating them.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Honestly Jeff, I believe we should do "all of the above". Drill for oil, clean coal technology, shale, natural gas, look at methane hydrates, AND pursue wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, other alternatives and efficiency standards. If we do all that, our economy will be strong enough to more aggressively transition down the road when the technology catches up with what we want to achieve. The current philosophy of forcing innovation through starvation and high prices will do nothing but stifle our ability to develop the very technologies we seek.
"Hey jackass, get your government off my freedom."
MOLON LABE
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Campfire Outfitter
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Good gravy....
Two factors here.
One, a 9 point oh is a HUGE quake, a hundred times more than a 7.
Two, the Japanese have never been particularly talented at taking initiative in a conformist society bent on preserving "face."
When you have a fluid and unprecedented situation such as occurred, protocol should go out the window, but I'm certain that when the investigation is completed, they'll find that the people involved reverted to form out of fear.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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If you get your understanding of what happened from sound bites- Yes, you will be scared to heck of nukes.
If you do a little research on the newer small scale plants- these are much safer- apples and oranges to the plant in Japan that was scheduled to be mothballed due to the many downsides of these old designs.
The toxicity issue is a problem with existing/old design especially when you have to deal with government and bureaucratic idiots and all of the graft, inefficiency, not acting responsibly etc. Case in point; They did not do complete backup safety drills and when they really needed it, could not get the backup procedure to work. I heard the backup generators were wired differently and they couldn't "plug and power up" the equipment they needed.
Until people are actually held accountable, we will have problems with all of this stuff.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win."
Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out-Art Linkletter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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A lot of modern designs have a gravity feed water reservoir system as a backup to the backup power. If what happened in Japan occurred in one of these, 1,000s of tons of water would naturally flow into the core and cool the rods.
"Hey jackass, get your government off my freedom."
MOLON LABE
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Campfire Outfitter
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Bring this thread back up a year from now after we have all the"facts" about what is really going on in Japan.
The truth is the situation there is much worse than anyone is telling you.
A little birdie is telling me that the clean up plans involve astronomical amounts of concrete to encapsulate the area.
There will be 4 very large pumps buried underground and they are being made and shipped NOW!
That area will be nothing more than a wasteland for many generations.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Good gravy....
Two factors here.
One, a 9 point oh is a HUGE quake, a hundred times more than a 7.
Two, the Japanese have never been particularly talented at taking initiative in a conformist society bent on preserving "face."
When you have a fluid and unprecedented situation such as occurred, protocol should go out the window, but I'm certain that when the investigation is completed, they'll find that the people involved reverted to form out of fear. Again, a valid point. I'll counter by saying that saying protocol going out the window in an American "cowboy up!" fashion just might not be desirable in a disaster/nuclear accident scenario. These are extemely complicated devices- WAY over the pay grade of most "cowboys". And to COUNT on such, is folly. What's that saying? "In a true emergency, you won't rise to some unprecedented level of competancy; you'll default to your training.". Something like that. To your first point, "we" fought and ultimately defeated a nuke plant going in on Heceta Head. This is on the Oregon coast, about 10-15 years ago, and is about 50 miles from where I'm shoveling [bleep] (yep, I am) right now. Anyway guess where is overdue for a huge subduction quake and massive tsunami? And yet, this plant almost happened. It defies common sense.
Last edited by Jeff_O; 03/30/11.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 26,337 |
if my computer gets any slower in responding on the Campfire, i'm thinking of going back to horse and buggy days..... for some ten years or so, some of the top oil men have indicated we have come to the end of the oil economy. so what's next? a myriad of fall-back positions. if ya got sun, why not use it? and of course wind, hydro, coal, natural gas, nuclear, and biomass. probably none are as cheap and eficient as oil, right? i mean, why use oil, if there's something out there that is better? nuclear is good because it doesn't leave a carbon footprint. well, not much, except for the mining and processing of the ore, and distribution process. oil and coal has fueled our standard of living for about 200 years. at it's end, something needs to replace it. short of discovering a mystical "free energy" source, nuclear power certainly seems to offer a solution to a piece of the puzzle. it might even benfit evolution. a few "rays" gets down there into our gene work, and the result is a more competitive human being? i mean if fireants can become resistant to insecticides, what about us humans becoming more adaptive to radiation??
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Gus, Brilliant tie-in to the thread title! BUT, ants breed like insects <g>. Humans are on a what, 25-yr generational cycle? Point being insect adapt an order of magnitude faster to environmental stressors....
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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