Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Standard Dangerous game load

I have been visiting this site for a long time. I have come to respect
<br> so many of the guys posting here many of whom have much greater experience then I do in many areas.
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<br> In the last year or so I have been seeing this phrase or something close to it posted in many threads:
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<br> "The standard DG load is 500 grains at 2100fps"
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<br> Well I was beginning to wonder about that from many other posts here which reflect a different opinion.
<br> I'm not siding with one or the other just wondering what is the "standard" DG load by todays standards?
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<br> By the standards of yesteryear, like John Taylors time in the bush and the types of guns and bullets of
<br> that era were quite effective. The limiting factor was not weight or velocity but rather bullet integrity.
<br> By todays standards the 30/06 is more powereful and lethal then the 300HH mag of the "old days" with
<br> current powder and bullets used.
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<br> If in fact a 500 grain bullet at 2100fps was the "standard" then why would a 425 grain premium bullet at
<br> the same speed be less functional? Certainly a 425 grain Barnes X with it's exceptional penetration and
<br> over all performance would have to be better then the best 500 grain bullet of the 1930's!
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<br> Would the new bonded bullets like the Swift in 450 grain be a handicap at 2050 fps which is easy out of
<br> a 458 win mag, actually comfortable. The Newer Tungsten solids from Speer are probably every bit as
<br> good as the best bullet made in Taylors era.
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<br> My point here is that I tend to side with the more conservative loads and many others seem to desire
<br> the hottest most powerful load possible. If a big animal is hit in a lethal location with a Tungsten solid
<br> from a Win Mag at 2100fps will there be any advantage to going up in speed to 2400fps from the Lott or
<br> 460 weatherby? I have a hard time believing that. Both will very likely exit anyway so what does the
<br> additional velocity get you?
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<br> What if we use an X bullet, both still exit.... Right? Most of the time anyway. The bonded core bullets
<br> will have the biggest difference in performance. The higher velocity will usually overexpand them. So in
<br> that case maybe the moderate 2100fps will actually be a benifit. Certainly standard hornady softpoints
<br> will be better driven at the moderate velocity, not the higher velocities.
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<br> What do you think, have we been fooling ourselves into believeing we need 2300 to 2400 plus FPS for
<br> these bullets or is there a significant increase in real world performance by loading full capacity or
<br> maximum loads for all our dangerous game rifles.
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<br> My New Lott has the potential to load what ever I need to get the job done. I think a moderate load has
<br> plenty of advantages and is clearly more then enough for anything that comes up.
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<br> I can get 2300+fps with 500 grain bullets. I also get the "standard" DG load of 2100 with ease and actual
<br> comfort to shoot. What in real world practical terms would improve the results going to the maximum
<br> velocity with solids? With softs? by going to the full 2300+fps velocity?
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<br> I have seen an awful lot of DG and really big game killed with all different calibers and loads. The Most
<br> common load among PH's I know and work with is the 2100 fps load with 500 grain bullets and 2300 with
<br> 425 grian hard cast bullets. I have not seen any problems with either load and all of them are still
<br> working today. This is from many years of field use in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and South Africa. All
<br> comments welcome as always but especially from those with first hand experience on DG. Lets see if we
<br> can get a general concensus on what the "standard" DG load is by todays standards.

Jim,
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<br>I have 0 experience shooting DG, but have read up a bit on it. The whole reason for packing the big bore is to have enough gun to handle things when they go wrong, and still be shootable.
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<br>If you look at all the famed DG rounds, the ideal muzzle velocity seems to be 2100-2300 fps, go under 2000 fps and there are reports of failings, go over 2400 fps, and the same happens. So, might as well settle on the middle, 2200 fps, and see what groups best in your gun.
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<br>I went through quite a few 500 gr hornadies playing with loads in the 458 lott, and personally could not detect a signifigant difference in recoil between 2100 and 2280 fps loads. I'd simply go with the most accuate load, and preferably one right at 2200 fps.
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<br>The sole reason you're taking the 458 over the 375 is you're looking for that insurance, that even if you do everything right, there is still that reserve of terminal performance on your side. I'd err on the side of being slightly higher in velocity, then slightly lower, as the lott just isn't capable of pushing 500's too fast.

Jim,
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<br>I ocassionally correspond with George Hoffman. George's view, which is similar to Art Alphin's, is that the bullet must have enough "spin" to properly stabilize it. His take was poor bullet performance (IE penetration on big critters) with solids was often caused by too low a twist rate, especially with the 45 cals. The bullet would become unstable while in the animal. Obviously, added velocity will increase bullet spin, but so will a faster twist in the barrel.
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<br>That brings me lighter weight premium bullets. Since they hold together better than the conventional bullets of old, you ought to get the same results with a lighter premium bullet--mostly. You will have to be careful with long for weight bullets like the Barnes.
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<br>The Barnes bullets are very long, and require a faster twist to properly stabilize. Therefore, a 450 grain Barnes solid may need to be spun as fast as a 500 grain Hornady solid for optimum stabilization. Then again, the lighter weight Barnes can probably be driven at a higher velocity which will spin the bullet faster and better stabilze it.
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<br>Interestingly enough, Christmas eve of 2001 I called Barnes on the off chance a techie was still at work, and lo and behold, Randy Brooks himself answered the phone. Randy likes to use the 416 Rem with a 350 grain X Bullet for everything in Africa, including elephant. He went on to say the 350 grain bullet is the optimum bullet for the 416. He said the only reason they even offer a 400 grain bullet for the 416 was because that's what the 416's earned their reputation with.
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<br>My take on this is two-fold. One, the 350 X in a 416 penetrates very well on these critters, and two, you need to be 50 grains lighter to get enough velocity to proper stabilize Barnes bullets in a typical 1x14 twist 416 barrel. (BTW, my 416 has a 1x12 barrel).
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<br>To that end, I'd bet a 450 grain Barnes bullet would work well out of your Lott, but be sure you have enough velocity to properly stabilze the thing. I do not know how you test if a bullet is stable enough other than shooting some big critters with it and seeing if it penetrates in a straight line. Another possibility is to look at the short for caliber bullets, like the Speer AGS.
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<br>You might call Barnes and try to talk to Randy yourself. Being a PH, I'd imagine he's make time to answer your questions directly. I'd give you George Hoffman's e-mail, but he is currently undergoing radiation treatment for cancer. I pray he's still with us in a few weeks when the treatment is complete.
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<br>Blaine

Paul, Blaine;
<br>I think you're right on the money. I like the 2200plus velocity with a Soft point bullet, and the solids can go as fast as needed to get the job done. I will not be loading solids too often as many of the animals I will be hitting will be in herds. I like the idea of a 450 grain X bullet and the newer 450 grain swift Aframe should expand to nearly an inch in diameter. I shot one into an elephant last year and the photo of the bullet was posted here under the heading recovered bullets or something like that.
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<br>I know I have read so much Hype over these guys stating that 2300 minimum and 2400 better, I have seen a fair share of really big stuff shot and I can't believe for a second that 100-150 fps with the same bullet impacting the same spot on the animal is gonna make any difference. It sure does not with a 300 mag VS a 30/06 on plains game. Both hit in the same place give the same result within a reasonable range(<300)
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<br>I even recently read on another site where one "expert" says that 2150 with a 500 grain solid does not give adequate penetration on elephant? Mike Lagrange who has culled over 6000 has a much different opinion. His claim is over 2300 begins to cause many stabilty and integrety problems for the bullets. The bullets themselves begin to act poorly after impact.
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<br>The 450 grain Swift or Barnes should be a dandy bullet for most of my work. The 500 grain bullets going plus or minus 2200fps will likely solve any issue I find if I place it properly. You guys also need to keep in mind I have been shooting a 458 Lott for several years using 425 grain hard cast bullets at 2300fps. I have never been able to recover a single bullet from any animal. 100% exits, The Lott I am using now is my personal rifle. I have a prototype bullet coming from Beartooth bullets to test. It's also a 425 grain bullet. If I can get good accuracy with it at 2300fps it will be a match to the bullets most PH's are using whom I work with.
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<br>The really sweet part of all this is the rifle strings the various bullet weights perfectly vertical. No windage difference at all. That means sighting in the 500's 1" low at 65 yards will put the 400's 2 inches high at 65 yards. this makes the 450's dead on at that distance. The 425 grain bullets might be a little higher at about 1 inch high or so. In any case there is no concern with any bullet weight at the distance I need to use this rifle at. I have not checked the X bullets yet. We have only shot 500 hornies and 400 barnes originals.
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<br>Recoil is not a problem with any load I have used so far the gun feels good and is balanced well with a stock that fits good. I have some various bullet weights to try out and I will report back. However the feeling I have is that I will keep the 500's minimum 2200 and the 425's and 450's about 2300. I see no need in driving bullets faster then this. I much prefer dependability and function over squeezing out every last fps of velocity.
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I shoot 400gr X's out of my lott with surprisingly good accuracy. I'm going about 2330fps. Around here thats more than I need for any animal. Recoil isnt bad at all out of an 8 1/4 lb rifle either.
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<br>I cant see pushing a bullet out of this type of rifle much faster. I never was a speed freak.

JJHack,
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<br>I also have read the big bullets act funny and don't penitrate as well if they are pushed too fast. I think Elmer Keith was saying that way back.
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<br>What type of sight settup are you going to use on your .458 Lott?

Rick, This is not a hunting rifle, but rather my work rifle. I have a barrel band front with a fiberoptic red front bead. The rear is a single block of steel machined into the shape of a peep sight. Non- adjustable and will be regulated for a 500 grain bullet at 2250 fps or in that area. The Zero will be somplace under 100 yards. I don't really care becasue it's flat enough from the muzzle to 150 yards not to worry.

Is this something the smith is making up special for you? It doesn't sound like anything I have seen offered by the usual manufacturers.
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<br>I suspected you would go with some sort of iron sight vs. a scope.
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<br>Hmmm ...... work rifle......... Tax deductable??

It has been built from scratch with a Model 70 classic action at the center of the project. The 458 Lott is a factory cartridge but only loaded by ASquare until this year. Hornady loads it in a 500 grain soft and a 500 grain solid.
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<br>Announced this past fall both Ruger and Winchester are building CRF rifles for this cartridge. I had mine started in July just in time for the big guys to build factory guns for it! I prefer the rifle I have over the factory rifle anyway. My stock is better and the barrel is a PacNor. Not to mention it has all been custom fitted and tested by a expert gunsmith. For what is probably just a few more dollars.
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<br>I should have some photo's of it by months end. I'll post them unless John has some now that he can post.jj

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<br>Sorry JJ, I was vague in my last post. I was referring to the sighting system. Did the gunsmith build the receiver sight and the barrel band front?
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John milled the rear peep from solid, and the barrelband front is an NEGC.

458 Lott
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<br>Thanks. Could I adapt that front sight to my Guide Gun? I have a Lyman peep installed already.

OH CRAP!! I am a "Campfire Regular". Time to ditch the old handle.

Rick,
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<br>A barrelband front sight would be very slick on the guide gun. Only issue would be the ports. Either you cover some of the ports, or have the barrel bobbed to ~17" to remove the ported portion of the barrel, then have the barrelband sweated on.
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<br>I like extremely robust iron sights, and will be doing something similar with my 458 lott and 500 Jeffrey, but haven't decided exactly what to do about the rear sights. The front sights on both guns will be a ruger #1 barrelband.

Paul, wait a bit till you see the photo's of my rifle. It's indestructable, not an exaggeration. You could drag it behind the truck down a gravel road with a rope and the sights will still be fine. The gun would look like hell but the sights would be fine. It's hard to screw up a solid block of blued steel. The front sight is hooded with a push button release for the hood so it's also well protected. I'm not suggesting this treatment but use it as an example. I would prefer an adjustable more precise site for a hunting rifle but once this gun is regulated with the fixed sights it will be usable to 100 plus yards just fine. Further more it's a 458Lott so how small a target do you need to hit? This is clearly for the biggest of game at normal to close range. Certainly under 150 yards and likely not over 75-100. If the groups were only 3" at a 100 yards would that matter for this guns purpose? As it is I can shoot 1" groups with it now with Peep sights and minimal load developement( none actually)and it's not complete! It's also quite easy to swap out the front bead if damaged. I had a vision of what I wanted my sights to be like. I never saw anything like this for sale though. In working with John Ricks closely he made a rear sight that I invisioned in my mind. The front sight and barrel band are silver soldered on and are for all purposes a molecular bond to the barrel now. This gun when finished will set a new standard for toughness. That I assure you. It will be simple, elegent and classic, but with an unbreakable character. It will not likely be like any rifle anyone on this site has seen or used before!jj