Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR BPCR Browning 45-70

My new "primitive weapon" for Louisiana deer season. This 45-70 will throw a Barnes 250 TSX downrange at 2,500 fps over a max dose of Vv 120 (Barnes load data). I've mounted a new Leupy 3.5-10x40 CDS and will have the ballistic turret calibrated for this load. The gun shoots about an inch at a hundred and does really well out to 300. Not much handicap with this primitive weapon... A tad heavy, but a great box stand rifle.

I bought this gun used. It has exceptional wood, and of course, the Badger Barrel. The previous owner had tuned the trigger to a clean 3#. He had a spread sheet of all types of B.P. loads, including duplex loads, all with velocities and accuracy data. I got it without the vernier sights, priced accordingly.

DF

That's a beauty. Lose the telscope and acquire a good set of compatible tang and front sights.

That would be an easy transition. But for deer hunting, that would be moving backwards. I have a 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps, with coin finish, and engraved. It has the Lee Shafer vernier long range rear and a bubble front sights. These Sharps were inported by Cabelas at one time. I got it used and it's all I need for traditional shooting.

DF

Odd looking with that scope on it. But if it works I guess it works. Lead at 1200 fps will kill'em just as dead as copper at 2,500.

Hard to get my mind around that rig, and how you plan to load and hunt with it, but whatever floats your boat.

That looks like exceptionally nice wood even as those Brownings go.

Paul

During the primitive weapon season this gun is legal, vs. a muzzle loader. It has no sling swivels so I carry it to the box blind in a case. I load it and lean it up in the corner. When I get a shot, I use my Leica range finder and dial in the range with the Leupy CDS turret. Then, it's just the matter of hitting the target. It's not a walking around type gun. Last year, I shot a hog thru the chest. The Barnes TSX went thru the hog's chest and fractured ribs on the far side as it exited. Hog was DRT, to say the least.

This seems to be an elegant solution to the primitive weapons challenge, at least IMHO. I'm sure it's a bit strange to the traditional shooters, but seems to work. I'm sure lead at 1,200 fps would work, the 250 gr. TSX at 2,500 fps is flatter and more powerful. And, it shoots right at an inch at a hundred.

DF

Why do you need flatter? You have a range finder.

Why do you need more powerful? Is dead not enough?

Perhaps you should ream that chamber to .450 NE and then it would be even flatter and even more powerful.

Not true, there is a huge difference between momentum and velocity. The rig sounds like it will do well the way it is set up. Sometimes you just gotta' have a scope.

If you say so

"Pay no attention to the little man behind the screen" A line from the Wizard of Oz, it applies here too.

You're not THAT little...

I'm a big advocate of "deader" and "flatter". Plus, it's different. No one else has one exactly like it. (They may not want one...!). My tastes change from time to time. This is just my "project de jour", if you get my drift...

It is a "screaming machine" and hits hard. With the CDS, I get only one compete turn of the top turret with a reset to 100 yds. With the arching, slower lead bullets, it wouldn't range as far as with the 250 gr. Barnes at 2,500 fps. I think this combo may range out to 450 yds. or so with a full turn. We'll have to see how it calibrates and how accurate it is at that distance. I need to chrono and get an exact velocity before I send the data to Leupold for them to laser scribe the CDS turret.

I had a Burris Signature with Ballistic Plex on this gun. It just so happened that with this load, the hash marks were right on at 150, 200 250 and 300, the latter on top of the duplex post. I could put three rounds on a pie plate at 300 yds. The problem with these set ups, the scope has to be a full power for the system to work. At full power, IIRC, 14X, the light was so dim, I couldn't see. This way, the power isn't a part of the ballistic program and can be adjusted independent of the CDS setting. I think the VX-3 has better glass than the Burris to begin with. This set up has to be better than that one... The Burris had a date with Ebay this summer.

DF

Sounds complicated and expensive. With my 40-70 Shiloh I have put 10 shots on quite a bit less than a pie plate at 600 yards. All I did was dial up the tang sight. Dialed it back down and put 10 in a 3 1/2 in. group at 300. 'Course that's old school and out of date and my preferred way.

Don't take that as a dig, it isn't. That's a good lookin' rifle and should shoot just as good with the right loads. It will darn sure drop game.

I've taken and witnessed the taking of a lot of big game. I'll confess to most of that being whitetails but there's been a fairly large variety. Mulies, hogs, elk, antelope, black bear and one moose. The first 20 or so years I used scoped bolt actions and/or lever actions with jacketed bullets. Since 1986 nearly all of my big game hunting has been with one variety of BPCR or another. Since 1976 I also used muzzleloaders shooting a patched round ball. The only difference I can honestly say that I have seen between performance on game of high velocity jacketed bullets and soft lead round balls or soft alloy lead bullets at moderate velocity is that the jacketed, high velocity rounds are more destructive. If the shot is well placed I do not believe one puts game down any quicker than the other. I'm not convinced, that if the proper cartridge or muzzleloader were used, there would be much if any difference on large, dangerous game. To qualify that, I do not have any personal experience to draw from regarding large, dangerous game. That comes under the heading of opinion.

I have one moose and one buffler credited to a genuine buffalo rifle and I assure you that the effect of a 540 grain slug at 1400 fps is absolutely devastating. Even my Newfie guide said right off the bat as soon as the smoke cleared that he had never seen a bull moose go down like that aka literally bodyslammed.The buffler was not much different. Jorge's buffler got knocked clean off its feet and landed legs up. 480 garin bullet at 1400 fps.

I have a Pedersoli Sharps (45-70) with a long range Lee Shaver vernier sight and could outfit this BPCR with same. For the type deer hunting I do here in Louisiana, I like a good scope and a ballistic turret.

That type hunting does sound like fun. Don't think I'm good enough to feel confident with that system. Better stick to what I'm comfortable with, what works for me.

DF

Moose, Newfoundland. Rifle:Original Sharps 45-110,


Buffler,Wyoming,rifle:Sharps 45-110




Your rifle is fully capable of this kind of results using straight BP and lead bullets. The Browning would be an easier carrying rifle and the 45-70 is a fine big game stomper with BP and lead. You would be amazed at just how much useable range you have at your disposal too. Use a 520 grain Lyman 457125 over 65 g pd ffg and it will do well over 200 yards if you take the time to learn the gun. WAAAAAYY too much fun!!!

It would take a good bit of R&D for me to get there. I just haven't put the necessary time into that pursuit, although it does look like a lot of fun.

Nice shooting. Great looking Sharps.

DF

I once read an essay on the five stages of a hunter. How I wish I'd kept that. It started out with a young or new hunter who just wanted to "get something", passed on to trophy hunting then hunting other bigger, different game in different places. I believe the next stage was "how" game was taken, the methods and tools used. I can't recall the last but I wouldn't be surprised if it were just happy to be out there. I'm at the 4th stage, the "how". If I take a game animal there is certain criteria to be met. Modern equipment is not a part of that criteria. The essay went on to say that not all hunters pass through all stages nor was it considered a necessary process. Also that one could be in more than one stage at a time. It was really interesting to track oneself and/or compare friends to say nothing of the fact that it was a very good read. It isn't gospel, merely interesting.

ET, I shoot an NEI 480 grainer out of my 45-90...it is absolutely amazing what that bullet will do. Lengthways, brisket to ham, through a fair sized mulie. I can't imagine that bullet being deficient of anything on any game except possibly dangerous African game, and then only the really big nasties.

I'm not far up the totem pole regarding my hunting, but understand the process you're discussing. Have a friend who progressed all the way to killing a deer with a spear. He publicized his exploits, his PR getting him in trouble, as there is NO spear season in the state. He even went to Africa and killed an elephant with a spear, filming the entire event. Got in trouble, his DVD used as the main evidence against him. It casued with an international incident because there's no spear season over there, either. But, due to an international treaty, he was in Fed. Court here for the "crime" over there. Had to pay a hefty fine and was banned from hunting for several years, here and abroad. I think his PH had to finish the pachyderm with a big double gun... As I recall, the PH also had to pay a fine.

So, I hear you, I just don't want to get too far into that process...

BP with the big guns does sound like fun and I do love shooting, maybe even more than hunting.

DF

Apparently, I was born into Stage 4

The spear thing has always interested me but, but illegal here too.

Dirtfarmer, the 45-70 is about the easiest of the BP cartridges to get shooting quite well. Sights. Here is a pic of Jorge's Shiloh Sharps 45/110 and my old gun. The ladder sights on the barrels are actually very good and not too hard to regulate. If you can find one of those for your rifle, it would be an exceedingly trim package and shoot really nicely.

I wasn't born into "stage 4". I guess what was so interesting to me was I pretty much followed his observed "stages". 3 & 4 kinda mixed for a number of years but 3 is completely gone. If I get the chance at a really good animal I won't pass it up but I darn sure don't pursue horns or antlers like I used to. Now, after a few days hunting, if presented the opportunity I take something to end the season and get back to the rest of my life....too many interests. The only thing left that I really want is a good black bear, preferably taken with either my Jaeger or one of my double rifles.

dirt, a spear? wow....more sand than I've got. Your friend must have deep pockets and huge cojones! I think in Missouri one can now use an atlatl. I don't believe that will ever make my "how" list.

Interesting reading, this thread.
The quote above.....did he kill the elephant or not? From what I read there, he tried and didn't succeed.

The late Peter Capstick has a story about his own adventure trying to take a Cape Buffalo with a spear. Don't remember the title.
Also...trying to understand the state laws by you that allow such an obviously modern setup to be used as a primitive weapon. Ain't nothing primitive about it. Works to your advantage, though. Lawmakers...make ya wonder sometimes.
Pete

He stuck the elephant with the specially made, take down spear he had crafted for that gig. He practiced with it until he was really pretty good. I think the elephant technically died from a dose of lead from a .470 double gun, per his PH. Strangely, his defense in Federal Court was the animal technically died from a gunshot wound, not from the spear. The judge wasn't that impressed with this defense strategy and my buddy paid a hefty fine and lost a year of hunting, world wide, not to mention his legal fees.

The prior state charge for the deer caper was with a hand crafted, primitive spear that still hangs at his camp. It looks to be about 10' long with a 8" blade. He ambushed the deer from a tree stand. Had it not been published in the news paper, he may have walked. This same guy killed a deer at a mile with a big .50 BMG, all on camera.

I think this guy must be at state 6 or better...

DF

Your friend sounds like an idiot to me.

To me and a bunch of us who know him!

But the guy has done so many good things. He's great with kids, helping them get started with hunting. He's been so successful with QDMA programs and in his developing own property. He's one of the best QDMA fund raisers in the country. He seems compulsive when it comes to these things.

Once he's on a trail, he's like a hard headed dog. You 'bout gotta knock him in the head to get him off that trial...

DF

One slip up by a PH in Africa and that wouldn't have been a problem!!!! Stomped into mush comes to mind.

Yeah, it was pretty dumb. The PH should have known better, in fact got in trouble and paid a healthy fine to his government. Sticking a whitetail with a spear, a creature that doesn't bite, is one thing. Going up against an elephant with something like that is not too bright...

Filming the whole thing and making those DVD's available is even less smart. That DVD was the court evidence used to convict him...

Otherwise, not a bad guy. If you met him, you would like him...

DF

I don't think he sounds so stupid for trying to kill something with a spear.

That is was illegal, is an issue, but not one that makes him stupid - just criminal. The stupid part was recording it and letting those recordings get out.

Once upon a time, men killed mastadon and mammoth with spears made of rocks and steel. They were not stupid at all. Just hungry.

Here are some photos of the great wood on the BPCR that the other photos didn't show as well.

DF

I know it's a matter of taste and preference and it's certianly your rifle...but man...what a gorgeous rifle....scoping it just takes away from those beautiful lines.

Sharps,

I don't disagree. The Leupy does distract from that classic look. But, I can always rig it back to the original look, the rifle doesn't suffer from this exercise. In the meantime, function over form; it's a great primitive weapon for deer hunting. In fact, it's the best primitive weapon I've encountered here in Louisiana. Of course, I wouldn't want to brag....! But as certain un-named contributors here on the Fire have so often stated, "Facts is facts."

Thanks for those kind words about the gun. It is an exceptional example of the Browning BPCR. These guns are really a lot of bang for the buck. The gun is made, as you know, by Miroku in Japan for Browning. But, the barrel is a Badger made in the USA. Just the blanks cost around $400, in line with Krieger and other premium barrels. It seems that Browning ships Badger barrels and fancy American walnut to Japan and this is what returns.

DF

BTW, here's another of my family of 45-70 guns. It's a Pedersoli Sharps with Lee Shaver long range vernier rear and bubble level front. So, I'm not without vintage firepower, some of which aren't contaminated by those new fangled Leupolds messing up the profile...

I'm not too far out of the loop...

DF

Why not hunt with the Pedersoli and black powder?

I could. I just don't like BP that much. I know that smokeless stuff is just a passing fad...

My eyes need the Leupold. Those vernier sights are better for targets, not the best in Louisiana woods. I'd hate to miss out on a fine trophy because I was limited to peep sights. I need all the advantage I can get.

Just me.

DF

"Once upon a time, men killed mastadon and mammoth with spears made of rocks and steel. They were not stupid at all. Just hungry."

Well...sorta....they didn't have metals....so it was rocks and such. Evidence....what there is of it... suggests that the animals were lured into a trap of some kind and pretty much immobilized - a pit trap has been suggested - and then killed. One would also think that the killing would have been a tribal endeavor as opposed to one man with a spear.
Pete

Nice Pedersoli dirt. Louisiana obviously has some interesting laws regarding its definition of "primitive". Of course, I guess that truly depends on how many years ago one considers primitive. A computer from a mere 20 years ago is primitive by todays standards. Would Louisiana law allow a double rifle from the 1870's-1880's as primitive, or does it have to be a single shot?

I've hunted some pretty thick stuff in Alabama, assuming La. is similar I understand what you're sayin'.

Has to be a single shot with an external hammer, no ejector and must be an 1800's design. So a Ruger #1 won't work, and for sure, no double guns, hammered or hammerless. There could be a specific 1800's date mentioned, but I'm not sure. Must be a design used back then.

I was trying to use the best equipment that would technically meet those criteria and use the latest optics, as that topic wasn't specifically addressed in the regs, just the gun. The Leupold CDS, ballistic turret, calibrated to this specific 45-70 load, extends the effectiveness of the gun out past 300 yds. How far beyond that, I'm not sure, but I'll find out.

Will update when data is available.

DF

Ok. What I gather from your post is that neither of my double rifles are eligible. Are they excluded specifically, as in does the reg actually mention doubles? Reason I ask is because both of my doubles are originals from the 1870's-1880's. That's rather convicting evidence they are from the era. And it's no big deal...just curious.

It limits the qualified rifles to period designed and manufactured single shots as described above and even provides a specific list by type and model. So, it doesn't exclude any specific rifles or types, only includes the ones they've listed. I guess everything else is excluded by default.

I think any rifle utilized during that specified season needs to be on the list to avoid problems with the Game Wardens.

DF

I just received delivery of the same rifle, but it says Winchester on it. I'm going to scope mine also and use it to play with at the range out to 500 yds.

What magnificient wood. wow!

Roy,

That's knock out wood on that BPCR. I thought mine was pretty good, but yours is much better. That's a real find. Even though they're both made by Miroku, I think one with Winchester stamped on the barrel would be more desirable than one with Browning.

You did good.

DF

And that's where the fun begins. Harder than it seems, unless you're using primitive scopes made for the older style guns. For a modern scope, like the Leupold VX-3 that I used, bases can be an issue. They no longer make Leupold bases for the BPCR. I used bases for the model 78, which has a much smaller octagonal barrel than the BPCR. I had to file and Dremel cut the front base to accommodate the larget BPCR barrel. I used Prussian Blue, much like one would do inletting wood. I finally got it to fit. With the shorter scope tube, I had to turn the front base around, drill and tap an extra hole to get it to work. I had to cut off the screws, as they were now too long and bottomed out. All is well, but it wasn't easy getting there.

DF

Primitive season?? BS!!

If it were 'primitive'....it would be with roundball and barrel sights and BLACK POWDER only!!

Just another 'gimmick' to get more $$$$ into game departments pockets!

The Wildlife and Fisheries bureaucrats and politicians make the rules.

Those of us who are about filling our freezers take those rules and push them to the max. No, this equipment isn't primitive at all. But it's very effective in achieving the goal and a hoot to shoot in the meantime.

DF

It's a bigger hoot to use iron sights and blackpowder. Trust me.

Yuppers. Looks just like this:

That'll work!! It's really good when one comes together without a lot of trouble. Nice shooting, BTW.

Doesn't get that easy for me usually. That's old ammo, made last summer for a different rifle. No complaints though.

Great group, Brent. How far and what were you shooting?

DF

That was just 100 yds. I was shooting a newly rebarreled 1877 Sharps in .45-70 using old paper patched ammo from another rifle.

Normally I shoot at 200 and beyond but I had to get the sights lined out so I started at 100. At 200, not quite so good, but still very very good. And all with a bunch of old cartridges.

This will be my dedicated Creedmoor rifle this year.

Brent

I love my ol hawkens at a 100 yards with iorn I can still hit X,s one after another . I have a inline but the hammer lock is way more fun

I made a base for my 1885. I used a piece of 22RF base mmaterial that you buy from Brownells in 12" pieces. Using the milling machine and a fly cutter, I machined the piece that fits over the receiver. To be sure it made perfcet contact, I cut it proud by a few thou and then epoxy bedded it to the top of the receiver. Fits perfectly and will be used for load development and then I'll go to tang mounted sights.





Many more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/winchester-1885-bpcr/

That's interesting. I wonder how long that aluminum strip and those rimfire rings will hold up with serious loads. I don't think that set up was designed for heavy recoil. May work like that for a while.

From that concept, what about a picatinny or Weaver type rail, milled and fitted just like that. It would make positioning of the scope a lot easier and center fire type rings would surely stay there for the duration.

DF

I've shot some real serious loads with 500g lead bullets with both Goex Cartridge and Reloader 7. Rings haven't moved yet. Those Millett Angle Locks really hold on for dear life. I use them on a Freedom Arms 454 Casull and shoot some EXTREMELY powerful loads out of that handgun. Although it is muzzle braked, it still throws a bit of recoil in your direction.

BYW, I just picked this up yesterday while on a business trip in Harrisburg PA...........



45-70 also........Tang sights are on order!