Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions about "RIFLE BRASS."

JB, I've read conflicting directions on method of annealing case necks. Usually disagreements center on the color to which necks should be heated, heat source and on whether to cool them rapidly by dumping them into water immediately.

Do you use any rule of thumb on annealing cases that doesn't require using temperature indicator paste on the case neck (heat source, case neck color, other visual indicator?) Thanks.

The method I have used for several years is to hold the case halfway up the body with my finger-tips, then turn the neck over a candle-flame until I can't hold the case anymore. The neck is then wiped off with a damp paper towel. This technique was developed using indicatir paste by Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist (and rifle loony) who wrote an article about it for Precision Shooting.

Heating the necks red makes them too soft, and quenching them in water doesn't have anything to do with annealing. Brass anneals the same whether water-quenched or air-cooled, unlike most other metals. Instead, cooling of the necks is done to prevent the case-heads from being annealed too, which isn't good.

John, thanks. Simple and rational, my favored approach as well. I'll try it on a batch of 404 Ruger cases I'm using for practice.

John,I have run into an issue with 300WSM brass (winchester) when trying to neck turn it seems that 85% of the necks will not let the pilot enter all the way into the case it stops about 2/3rds of the way down the neck, when looking into the case it appears to have a slight lip at the stoping point. I only turn necks for a couple of rifles and I do not have this problem with the other calibers. I use the forester hand held.

Thanks in advance

Has the brass already been fired, or is it brand-new?

The dreaded "donut".

Yep.

John,

What do you think of the Lee factory crimp die? I had one made for my big Weatherby. In the past, I�ve had neck tension problems with Norma brass, even when I anneal it. I�ve got 200 new pieces of Norma 30-378 Weatherby brass and a case neck annealing machine on the way. I�m going to anneal after every firing, but I had the Factory Crimp Die made as a back up to annealing. What are your thoughts regarding the Factory Crimp Die?

I have never used one, partly because in any cartridge where crimping seemed necessary, the standard seating die performed fine. Though I do seat bullets and crimp in separate operations.

I've always been a little puzzled about exactly how and why the Lee Factory Crimp Die supposed to help, even after reading all their stuff.

K&M makes a neck turner that has a pilot that cuts that "lip" you're seeing away and glides right on down as far as you need to go.

OK. Well, if I start having erratic neck tension again, I'll try the factory crimp die. It works like a collet in a drill. The farther down you turn the die the closer 4 leafs move towrd one another until you bottom out and the leafs come together an form a perfect circle. It leaves a visible crimp in the brass AND the bullet if you crimp it hard.

the brass had been fired twice

JB,

I really like the Lee Factory Crimp Die, especially for cases with short necks, like .300 Savage, or when using light-for-caliber bullets seated out long so there isn't much grip in the case neck. I occasionally go with as little as .15" of grip on varmint bullets, even in larger calibers, when using the Lee crimper.

The user controls the amount of crimp easily, so it works like a taper crimp on smooth bullets. It can crimp into the cannelure on those bullets that have them, and even go deep into the groove on Barnes TTSX bullets.

In extra-long bullets that need to be seated somewhat below the ogive the crimper will frequently smooth out the "rain gutter" and avoid the need to trim a batch of cases unusually short just to be used with that particular bullet.

I run almost all of my rifle reloads through the Lee Factory Crimp Dies in the hope that doing so helps reduce variation in neck tension, and the loaded rounds feel smoother at the bullet-neck junction when handled. (I can occasionally be caught fondling some of my loaded rounds).

I suggest you try one and see what you think. They are inexpensive, well made, and actually sort of a marvel of simple engineering.

John,

I have a rifle Gordy Gritters built. It's the same rifle that has the Krieger barrel that I applied the UBC to. Gordy cut a neck-sizing die and a seating die for me. Wouldn't I be safe in assuming the neck-sizing die isn't sizing my necks crooked? This rifle shoots everything well, and some bullets real well.

I'm getting another reamer made by Pacific Tool and Gauge and Gordy is going to cut a full-length sizing die. I had NO idea it was so expensive (including the reamer about $600.00).

I just bought 200 new pieces of brass, so while I'm throwing money to the wind I thought I might as well do it right. I've been taking the expander ball and assembly out of all my custom dies for 15 years. I read several long articles in Precision Shooting regarding the expander ball pulling the neck crooked. So, if I need the case neck expanded, I use an expander mandrel in a die. I just hate working the neck so much. Each time I work it, that's one more nail in the coffin of that $3.00 piece of brass.

A neck-sizing die doesn't necessarily mean straighter brass. A lot depends on how loose the fired case body is in the die. I would assume that Gordy would cut the die just slightly over fired-case size, however. The way to find out, however, is to test a few neck-sized cases in a concentricity gauge.

That's also the way to find out of standard dies (with an expander ball) are pulling the neck out of alignment. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. My .338 Lapua Redding dies produced really straight case necks the first time I tried them. I'll anneal the necks after every 4 shots to make sure they don't crack.

When I'm sizing a LOT of cases, as in a high-volume varmint rifle, I tend to use Redding bushing dies, which only size down the necks. After a few firings the cases often need to be FL sized, which is where a body die comes in.

For instance, my .223 dies are Redding Competition, and neck-size brass very straightly, because the body of the die is just barely above fired-case diameter. But if the cases need FL sizing, I first neck-size a case, then run it into the bushing neck-sizing die. This also results in very straight cases, while body-sizing first and then neck-sizing doesn't.

Once in a while we'll even luck out and end up with a standard FL die that doesn't neck down our cases so much that an expander ball is required. This normally results in VERY straight brass. My RCBS .300 H&H and Redding .243 Win. dies do this.

A standard FL die can also be altered to do this. Allan Hall, the famous benchrest shooter and gunsmith, told me a few years ago that for his varmint rifles he just polishes out the neck area of standard dies until they just size the neck down enough to hold a bullet. This is beyond the capabilities of most handloaders, but is the same basic principle used in bushing dies. Instead the bushing is changed if the necks needs to be a little tighter or looser.

John,

I still have the chance to change the dimensions on my FL sizing die reamer. Gordy, as a rule, goes 0.003 below the finishing reamer in every dimension in small cases, and 0.004 in all dimensions in large cases. What would you prefer if you were in my shoes? I have no doubt PT&G and Gordy will produce superior products (minimal run-out); I keep wanting to have PT&G make my FL reamer .003 below the finishing reamer in the hopes that I wont need the expander ball.

Oh, yeah, they both do great work. What you have outlined sounds good.

John,

I guess what I was asking, is would you FL-size it below the finisher dimensions 0.004 or 0.003?

I'd go with what Gordy suggests for the case.

John,

What causes the dreaded donut?